The current "meta" for endgame PvP

[NiteHawk]

i like the refading in combat choice, especially when being faded adds that small penetration chance. i think its a viable option to start faded and blast fade blast blast or fade blast fade blast versus immense MR characters.. ofc im just speculating on this atm but from the unaffect scaling thread it seems worth it.

That is very true, it should be interesting to see.

I do have to remove fade off players when they do generic things though such as heal or cast spells, and other things. We will see how it goes and will adjust it as we see fit.

[Terron]

sight should just cost more mana and reveal everyone. with no penalty to recast fade or recast sight. althou sight should cost alot of mana so it isnt spammed.

kinda like a detect evil/danger spell mixed with a circle of protection vs stealth. 50 mana perhaps. seems reasonable as its a guardian that has the spell.

[NiteHawk]

I did change druids to have no AGI loss unmorphed, but in exchange they lose the extra AGI they had in compensation for it in morph. So it's the same in morph, but higher out of morph then it was before. (obviously 100% rather then 96.5%, or around 1 agi point.)

[Honzo]

I am the Elder Druid from Stasis, Doomgaze. That being said I have always felt Druids were weak, others have seemed to disagree. I don't try to bring this problem up often but one of the biggest problem with druids is the lack of gear available for them.

What I think happened was people thought they were overpowered pre-wipe and they got nerfed uber hard. I agree the agility penalty should be taken away period, in fact I feel like druid morphs need a BUFF due to how weak the wisdom scaling is. My gnome 21 agility, with 23 wisdom ends up with 24.6 agility, yet a 22 agility Half Elf can end up with 25.4 with only 20 wisdom. Doesn't make much sense to me(they both get +3 agi even though one is 20 wis one is 23, .2 scaling per pt above 20 super sucks). I even brought up the thing about bears losing Wisdom in bear form personally so casters could actually STAND a chance against them. I'm not just lookin' for handout buffs, but balance. They need something though, and they need it asap.

I've even suggested FF in morph before (Yes, I know WoW does something like this) so it'd prevent the agility loss in morph.

Really though...I think Druids are in a weird place and I've said it for a long time. I think Druids need some kind of overhaul. They don't suck, but they are pretty close to the bottom of the barrel. If they are going to be the shapeshifting class then we need to let them do cool stuff shape shifted.
What about just removing the agility penalty flat out? That'd give them a little boost. I'm not saying that will fix the problem but I don't think the agility penalty is the issue at all.

I've already covered the 3 big things affecting them. 1) Gear-most notably a weapon, 2) agility penalty, 3) class cohesion(am i a hybrid? a shapeshifter? a plantcaller?).

I have more to discuss and say on the matter but I'm curious as to Vhexim's thoughts. I'll reply back when we get more feedback.

[NiteHawk]

I am the Elder Druid from Stasis, Doomgaze. That being said I have always felt Druids were weak, others have seemed to disagree. I don't try to bring this problem up often but one of the biggest problem with druids is the lack of gear available for them.

What I think happened was people thought they were overpowered pre-wipe and they got nerfed uber hard. I agree the agility penalty should be taken away period, in fact I feel like druid morphs need a BUFF due to how weak the wisdom scaling is. My gnome 21 agility, with 23 wisdom ends up with 24.6 agility, yet a 22 agility Half Elf can end up with 25.4 with only 20 wisdom. Doesn't make much sense to me(they both get +3 agi even though one is 20 wis one is 23, .2 scaling per pt above 20 super sucks). I even brought up the thing about bears losing Wisdom in bear form personally so casters could actually STAND a chance against them. I'm not just lookin' for handout buffs, but balance. They need something though, and they need it asap.

I've even suggested FF in morph before (Yes, I know WoW does something like this) so it'd prevent the agility loss in morph.

Really though...I think Druids are in a weird place and I've said it for a long time. I think Druids need some kind of overhaul. They don't suck, but they are pretty close to the bottom of the barrel. If they are going to be the shapeshifting class then we need to let them do cool stuff shape shifted.
What about just removing the agility penalty flat out? That'd give them a little boost. I'm not saying that will fix the problem but I don't think the agility penalty is the issue at all.

I've already covered the 3 big things affecting them. 1) Gear-most notably a weapon, 2) agility penalty, 3) class cohesion(am i a hybrid? a shapeshifter? a plantcaller?).

I have more to discuss and say on the matter but I'm curious as to Vhexim's thoughts. I'll reply back when we get more feedback.

Tank in bear, DPS in cat.

I'd prefer waiting until we have proper weapons for them before you go off on their damage though.

It's not just about AGI that gets effected, you say it like AGI is the only thing they get. They do get armor, str, etc. Gnomes are probably more better for bear form with better AC and such, while HEs/humans/etc are more all rounders. To base it off one race is also a issue, boosting the amount it does (I can understand if it is adjusted slightly) but I don't see a massive boost otherwise other classes will just get rekt by the druid.

It is technically not .2 per point because you are basing it off two classes agi differences too. You can't really base it simply off gnomes because gnomes can have 23 wis cause you will ruin the point of even using other races. Though most people still wouldn't pick gnomes I would assume due to lack of STR, most people would pick 22 wis races thus ruining any race that has 21 wis or less. It's a hard balance here but I think basing it off gnomes purely because they have 23 wisdom but lower agi to boost it on them will simply make other races really powerful when using druids. I am not sayin they don't need adustments though.

I already removed the agi penalty flat out, that's what this update was about.

[Honzo]

I am the Elder Druid from Stasis, Doomgaze. That being said I have always felt Druids were weak, others have seemed to disagree. I don't try to bring this problem up often but one of the biggest problem with druids is the lack of gear available for them.

What I think happened was people thought they were overpowered pre-wipe and they got nerfed uber hard. I agree the agility penalty should be taken away period, in fact I feel like druid morphs need a BUFF due to how weak the wisdom scaling is. My gnome 21 agility, with 23 wisdom ends up with 24.6 agility, yet a 22 agility Half Elf can end up with 25.4 with only 20 wisdom. Doesn't make much sense to me(they both get +3 agi even though one is 20 wis one is 23, .2 scaling per pt above 20 super sucks). I even brought up the thing about bears losing Wisdom in bear form personally so casters could actually STAND a chance against them. I'm not just lookin' for handout buffs, but balance. They need something though, and they need it asap.

I've even suggested FF in morph before (Yes, I know WoW does something like this) so it'd prevent the agility loss in morph.

Really though...I think Druids are in a weird place and I've said it for a long time. I think Druids need some kind of overhaul. They don't suck, but they are pretty close to the bottom of the barrel. If they are going to be the shapeshifting class then we need to let them do cool stuff shape shifted.
What about just removing the agility penalty flat out? That'd give them a little boost. I'm not saying that will fix the problem but I don't think the agility penalty is the issue at all.

I've already covered the 3 big things affecting them. 1) Gear-most notably a weapon, 2) agility penalty, 3) class cohesion(am i a hybrid? a shapeshifter? a plantcaller?).

I have more to discuss and say on the matter but I'm curious as to Vhexim's thoughts. I'll reply back when we get more feedback.

Tank in bear, DPS in cat.

I'd prefer waiting until we have proper weapons for them before you go off on their damage though.

It's not just about AGI that gets effected, you say it like AGI is the only thing they get. They do get armor, str, etc. Gnomes are probably more better for bear form with better AC and such, while HEs/humans/etc are more all rounders. To base it off one race is also a issue, boosting the amount it does (I can understand if it is adjusted slightly) but I don't see a massive boost otherwise other classes will just get rekt by the druid.

It is technically not .2 per point because you are basing it off two classes agi differences too. You can't really base it simply off gnomes because gnomes can have 23 wis cause you will ruin the point of even using other races. Though most people still wouldn't pick gnomes I would assume due to lack of STR, most people would pick 22 wis races thus ruining any race that has 21 wis or less. It's a hard balance here but I think basing it off gnomes purely because they have 23 wisdom but lower agi to boost it on them will simply make other races really powerful when using druids. I am not sayin they don't need adustments though.

I already removed the agi penalty flat out, that's what this update was about.

I agree, tanky in bear form and dps in cat. I also agree with the weapons thing, which is why I was hesitant to bring it up. We're still waiting on weapons to see what druids damage will even be. Right now I am a little higher(very little) than a ninja but without the roundhouse in cat form.



20 cat: +3 agi, 20 str, 32 AC
20 bear: +1 agi, 15 str, 52 AC, 4 end, 4 wis

21 cat: +3 agi, 21 str, 33 AC
21 bear: +1 agi, 15 str, 53 AC, 4 end, 4 wis

22 cat: +3 agi, 22 str, 35 AC
22 bear: +1 agi, 16 str, 55 AC, 4 end, 4 wis

23 cat: +3 agi, 23 str, 36 AC
23 bear: +2 agi, 17 str, 56 AC, 5 end, 5 wis

This is pre-change to the way bard songs/morph stats work and bear wisdom nerf.

I log on and morph cat.

I am at 39 23.6 17 18 23 x now in cat, 33.3 22.2 21.5 18 23 x in bear. GNOME

Hobbes is an Elf

His stats in cat at 39 24.3 18 17 21 x, in bear 33.8 23.1 22 17 21 10 . ELF

Why is it that the morph is so bad for higher wisdom? there is absolutely ZERO reason to go with a char with high wisdom because you lose out on literally everything. It's not worth 2-4 ac. The scaling is just all jacked up. Wisdom needs to have a great effect on morphing if they are the shape shifter class...it's literally all they've got going for them really. The argument could be made that the difference between 20 int and a 23 int spell caster is huge, why would Druid NOT be the same? Just from the stats above there is zero reason to ever go Gnome. The stats as an elf are better on all fronts. You sacrifice a +1 to go 23 wisdom and you get 3 ac because of it?

If you are wanting to make the stats less of a thing then you should make the tertiary bonuses huge. Maybe high wisdom should give significant armor increase or increase damage done itself? I'm not sure what the answer is but they need some sort of intervention. I see the reverted agi nerf now but I don't think it's going to fix the problem like I stated earlier. I just don't think increasing the tertiary stats are going to help like Endurance or AC. Not sure what direction to go in.

As is, Druids require literally every stat so you have to choose what you want to do. That is part of the hybrid nature of the class. Since we dont get many points and the class requires literally every stat you must choose where you will excel. Without Charisma you're not tanking, without int you're not getting a FF off and your heals are crap and haste is short. I'm fine with those limitations. We should be able to be good at what we choose at least. The class seems flexible, should be more about that and less about the races. Maybe the problem is that ppl with 20-22 wisdom are gaining too MANY stats. At this point there is no way an Elemental could ever keep up, even with 24 wisdom. Wisdom is the druids main attribute I figure if they are to -have one-.

just putting out points for discussion. Glad Druids are finally being covered again some.

[Terron]

my elf druid was 18 22 18 12 22 10 and casted fine(thank you elf fizzle rate), it was also the best in morph statistics, it just couldn't hit with 25.4 agility in cat. level 18 and still missing lumbering bears 1-2x per round made me sick to my stomach. if i wanted to miss i could be a half orc barbarian and hit for 2x the damage so i deleted it for my gold back. when i level my next druid i will definitely max and probably +1 the int and use ray and possibly reallocate to a morpher when i have enough exp. seems like a waste but no way am i enduring low level morphing ever again. i was getting more exp curing undead in gy for 32-37s than i was attacking in morph, wasn't even close.

my GF did this and it looks alot more fun, ray for nearly 110 and cure 120 (21 int). now that the agi penalty is gone hell i may stay a caster.

[Styx]

Correct stay as caster till level 16 to 18 , Ray works awesome, then reallocate cause morph works by then with decent chance to hit

My dwarf druid now can't hit to save his life , so have to pick new race for druid.

The agi druid got on morph allowed to be equal against the 22 agi classes. Seeing as 22 agi vs 22 agi in a fight would be equally matched in a ability to hit each other

[Terron]

yeah that sucks. w/o the equalizer in agility the extra hp isnt helping and from my exp so far i wouldnt like the lower agility morphed but i like the penalty removed for "casting" and relative usefulness.

i dont think the END stat is powerful enough currently. 60 hp isn't enough should be more like 100 imo (if the possibility of balance is there, ofc). when you build a character it should be prevalent to pick any of your classes primary statistics. noone will +1 end currently, or str really its almost always agility or nothing. it should be more of an ooo str, eh nah, ooo agility nah, oooo end, man i cant decide*** it isnt this way atm. the low endurance races had too low of hps at the start but i dont think the hp scale is perfect quite yet.

id probably only +1 endurance on an elemental chanter but the only way to +1 is to lose 2 wisdom or 2 end which eliminates every possibility of a +1 from the race imo.

[NiteHawk]

my elf druid was 18 22 18 12 22 10 and casted fine(thank you elf fizzle rate), it was also the best in morph statistics, it just couldn't hit with 25.4 agility in cat. level 18 and still missing lumbering bears 1-2x per round made me sick to my stomach. if i wanted to miss i could be a half orc barbarian and hit for 2x the damage so i deleted it for my gold back. when i level my next druid i will definitely max and probably +1 the int and use ray and possibly reallocate to a morpher when i have enough exp. seems like a waste but no way am i enduring low level morphing ever again. i was getting more exp curing undead in gy for 32-37s than i was attacking in morph, wasn't even close.

my GF did this and it looks alot more fun, ray for nearly 110 and cure 120 (21 int). now that the agi penalty is gone hell i may stay a caster.

I mean, if you're having trouble hitting with 25.4 agi on that character, any other character and class will have a lower hit rate. Maybe it's to do with the area or monster. Levels have little less impact as well on dodge rate though vs what ROK did.

But let's take the formula again.

Base on monsters in PVE when attacking one is 55%.

Let us calculate AGI now. Lumb bear has a max of 17 agi. Let's say with the changes now you morph to what? 24 agi? so 24-17 is 7 agi higher, which is 14% more HR on it. (2% per agi)

Let's calculate level now. Lumb bears are level 10, you are level 18, 8 difference. This would be 20% more agi right now (2.5% per level).

On total, your hit rate is 89% vs them which is is even lower cause of the base for them starts at 40%, which is a minimum of 1% HR for them. I don't know, again I'm not seeing the problem there. Of course you aren't going to have 100% HR, even if you are higher level. A couple levels doesn't make a extreme difference but enough to impact. In your case I feel it is plenty.

I would love to see proof, since my proof is my formulas here.. With no evidence of things and word of mouth I find it hard to believe. Things like this make it more difficult for me to balance because I need valid information/proper data and when I get down to the actual formula testing it myself, I just can't agree here.

The agi druid got on morph allowed to be equal against the 22 agi classes. Seeing as 22 agi vs 22 agi in a fight would be equally matched in a ability to hit each other

Yeah, a dwarf with lower AGI would make less impact. I'm in the process of balancing druids as they may be okay with a little higher AGI but their actual HR is often better then most races of the same values. I.E. you could level a dwarf, or a dwarf druid, and the dwarf druid morphed is better at HR.

The thing is though, the reason why spells might be better at lower levels especially is not because of MR or physical dodge rate, but because on alot of lower level monsters, they don't have alot of wisdom, which means easier piercings. Just like leveling a sorc/necro, the impact would be similar, you probably level better at lower levels, though I don't sorcs/necros have much issues. It's more a monster design flaw rather than anything, though obviously MR needs a look at, it wouldn't make a lick of difference if they don't have wisdom to begin with.

i dont think the END stat is powerful enough currently. 60 hp isn't enough should be more like 100 imo (if the possibility of balance is there, ofc). when you build a character it should be prevalent to pick any of your classes primary statistics. noone will +1 end currently, or str really its almost always agility or nothing. it should be more of an ooo str, eh nah, ooo agility nah, oooo end, man i cant decide*** it isnt this way atm. the low endurance races had too low of hps at the start but i dont think the hp scale is perfect quite yet.

Yeah endurance balancing is still an ongoing process. I think it's at a better place than it was before but I think there still needs to be some tweaks at hand. I think 100 HP is a bit extreme though in this situations, but I can understand eventually raising the per point. The problem here though is that you need to be careful, before hand the END was too far split so high HP was better than AGI. now I think it's more equal, but it should be that higher HP classes have a little edge when its two physical classes combatting, more than it is now anyways. 100 per HP point would be a HUGE change.

If HP is adjusted, you need to be seriously careful about how much it should be per level. Right now it is 60 for normal rates as you said, and 64.8 when having class bonuses.

BaseHP + BonusHP + ((Endurance - HealthLevelRemove) * HealthMultiplier) * currentLevel) * Classes(ClassID).hpModifier))

Is the formula. Base HP is always 60 right now. HealthLevelRemove is 3. HealthMultiplier is 2.4. ClassHPmod is often 1 but can be 1.04 on knights and 1.08 on barbs. BonusHP is your charisma bonus but we will pretend there is none atm.

You are looking at the formula currently like this:

60 + 0 + ((Endurance - 3) * 2.4) * 25 (MaxLVL) * 1
For generic classes.

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23 END:
60 + ((23- 3) * 2.4) * 25 * 1 = 1260

22 END:
60 + ((22- 3) * 2.4) * 25 * 1 = 1200

18 END:
60 + ((18- 3) * 2.4) * 25 * 1 = 960

Only did 22 to show the per HP level difference, which is 60 at level 25. Your 100HP per would be something like (changing the formula a little)..

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23 END:
50 + ((23- 9) * 4) * 25 * 1 = 1450

22 END:
50 + ((22- 9) * 4) * 25 * 1 = 1350

18 END:
50 + ((18- 9) * 4) * 25 * 1 = 950

To me I think it's a bit extreme again. Obviously before it was:

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23 END:
60 + ((23- 6) * 3) * 25 * 1 = 1275

22 END:
60 + ((22- 6) * 3) * 25 * 1 = 1200

18 END:
60 + ((18- 6) * 3) * 25 * 1 = 900

And to people from the original HP to HP now, that is the difference between HO's always winning and lings/hos being around equal. That's a 75HP. I even reverted the AGI formula back to the original (so it is again only 2%) and removed lings faster stamina recovery too so it makes me wonder. 100HP would virtually send it back to the original stats and then some and a half.

Before hand there probably wasn't a base HP of 60HP but the whole deal isn't so much that, it's how scaling worked before hand, which was 75HP more per END.