MR Changes

[Folder]

If you give humans 2x +1 or a +2 they become better in all cases than half elves instantly.

[Styx]

You would have to do racial adjustments. That way it can be tweaked more so.

Humans could be changed by battle stamina timer perhaps? I donno but they should be a better for all around anything. Which goes back to racial adjustments.

Lings are dodgy then it's either agi buff or racial. Perhaps an ac bonus for lings? To make up for the lower end.

If you make a 23 wis gnone I will have a nice 24 wis gnome elder..

[Lateralus]

If you give humans 2x +1 or a +2 they become better in all cases than half elves instantly.

Well you'd be spending that extra 5-7 pool points to do so meaning halfelf would be more balanced but a +2 str barb that doesn't care about mr might be better.


Honestly we can do all this chatting but with some light analytics we could look at current classes and race combos to give us a clearer picture of what's used. I know it's on the todo list but might be worth checking out for race changes. It won't give the whole picture I mean just because a lot made halfling pallies when the game started thinking they would be good like rok doesn't mean they are good here.

[daedroth]

Eh... had an... "idea"... for lack of a better word.
Although I think it is no different than the +1 END.
Humans (possibly halflings) could be considered divinely blessed (or some crap). 13 Base CHR (cant go lower - costs no points)?
Nah... idea sucks because of CHR based classes (esp. with lings); because then it would be like an extra 3 stat points for free...
*whistles and walks away slowly*

Hey! Wouldnt it be funny if races had minimum stats based on the maximum a stat can be?
*runs away*

[Tucker]

So the two stats that every single class needs is Agi and End - and those stats will be maxed out for every single non-troll crit. Agi has a range of 19-23 and End has a range of 17-23. You can see where the problem lies here - sure you can buff Gnomes and Lings with racial bonuses but it'll be very very difficult to balance with 900 hp.

Overlaps or balanced problems that would happen as a result of this change can be fixed with things like tweaks to racial traits to keep things balanced but the change probably should happen. Also, yeah the agi changes will help lings out but I wouldn't expect much change. The big benefit will be to Ling Elders since they have like 26 agi or something crazy when morphed. They'd have to be nerfed in some small way with the buff to 18 end and the agi buff - lets not forget though they still have 18 str and only 960 hp after that happens - if you drop their usable points or nerf them in some way to racial bonuses it'll be enough.

[NiteHawk]

So the two stats that every single class needs is Agi and End - and those stats will be maxed out for every single non-troll crit. Agi has a range of 19-23 and End has a range of 17-23. You can see where the problem lies here - sure you can buff Gnomes and Lings with racial bonuses but it'll be very very difficult to balance with 900 hp.

Overlaps or balanced problems that would happen as a result of this change can be fixed with things like tweaks to racial traits to keep things balanced but the change probably should happen. Also, yeah the agi changes will help lings out but I wouldn't expect much change. The big benefit will be to Ling Elders since they have like 26 agi or something crazy when morphed. They'd have to be nerfed in some small way with the buff to 18 end and the agi buff - lets not forget though they still have 18 str and only 960 hp after that happens - if you drop their usable points or nerf them in some way to racial bonuses it'll be enough.

Yeah and you can't just change Hp per end point as that would buff all other ENDs up to the max which isn't what is needed. You can't also just put super AGI on, specially because some races actually have END and AGI together with decent STR. Makes it fairly terribad to do. It might be better to take a look at all races and see what the best option is for all of them.

[Styx]

This keeps leading back to racial adjustments to give the slight tweaking needed

And why give ac bonus for a dwarf with 23 end? Not enough health already?

Why Im saying lings ac bonus and or agi bonus

With all the differences might be better to just race bonus stuff.

[NiteHawk]

I'm pretty much deciding if the current system is OK or if we should do INT vs WIS. The only issue with INT vs WIS is that you are putting INT with two stats, which is the damage and also hit rate unlike others which have STR and AGI split up for damage and hit rate. This means by picking lower INT it's like picking both a lower str/agi class with no benefit on either side. If I could I might of put another stat in when we started but thats is overly complicated now and far too much work to do so it is what it is right now.

Right now with current slayers a saurian slayer with 10 wis has 75% hit rate, saurian knight with 10wis is about 70%, and a gnome enchanter with 22 wis has 27% hit rate. A knight with a 2.5% MR race (middle ground) Knight would have 45% with 17 wis, 48% with 18 wis, etc. Int doesn't matter right now.


The other option was to make INT vs WIS similar to AGI VS AGI with smaller increments. This however means you'd need a base and then go from there. I.E. Right now AGI is 40% with 2% (2.25% soon) per AGI difference. So at most you'd see 19 agi vs 24 agi, being 5 AGI difference, or 10% (11.5% with new changes). Thus your hit rate is 50% and your dodge rate is 30% in that situation. Obviously WIS is not maxed out often so it might work to do it INT vs WIS but I do worry that it again makes races without high INT worthless.

Basically what you could do is something similar. Let's say INT vs WIS. Base is 30% with 3% reduction per point difference.. If you have 22 int and the person has 17 wis, then that is 5 difference and the hit rate is 45%. If your attacking a half orc with 10 wis it would be a difference of 10 points, so a hit rate of 60%. The issue obviously is when you have higher wisdom. If your a 23 wisdom char vs a 19 int char, thats 12% less, so hit rate is only 28%. You can reduce/increase the 3% or the base of 30% but then someone is screwed because of the high wisdom difference.

The problem with this is you screw one side of the spectrum. Either you screw up high resistance, low resistance, or the middle men. For example if you do 40% base with 3% reduction, it means that a half orc with 10 wisdom is 76%, which would be OK, but then your middle men with 17 wisdom also have 55% hit rate, which is 10% more then current and closer to the original system that everyone complained about more than current.

If you do 35% base with 2% reduction, means that 17 wis is 45%, which is where it is at now for middle men. But then 10 wis is only 59% hit rate. This also means that a 18 int vs 22 wis is 27% hit rate, which is kinda low like it is currently.. Problem is, by raising it, now you are again ruining the middle men wis. Bit annoying. Specially when you have lower INT etc then you're effecting it even more. In this scenario 18INT vs 17WIS would be 37% hit rate. Pretty low.

To me, there is too much variation and I don't think you can use this system as people claim you can it similar to AGI vs AGI. It would be like using the current AGI vs AGi system if people sometimes picked 10 AGI as the normal in some cases. Obviously it wouldn't work out for them and it's hard to balance such a large variation. We already know that having a hit rate of almost 90% was far too high as it was before. I haven't really been able to find a proper/good formula that's linear and that really makes sense though maybe someone has an idea.

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The other solution is to balance it through damage and duration which I think would work too. Making the points matter more could be a thing. It just depends on what players thoughts are for how high their damage should be to start with lets say BLAST at 23 INT, vs BLAST with 22 INT, then 21 INT, etc, in a linear fashion again.

I don't think there is any issue with wisdom/race/class being the deciding factor on a static resistance value IMO.. There is just too much variance if using the INT vs WIS method, plus lower/higher INT mucking it up either more if you aren't using close to max INT.

[Folder]

INT v WIS is crap, the current methodology of using WIS works better and is easier to balance imo. The scale can be adjusted easily, if needed. Not sure any adjustment is needed atm though.

[NiteHawk]

INT v WIS is crap, the current methodology of using WIS works better and is easier to balance imo. The scale can be adjusted easily, if needed. Not sure any adjustment is needed atm though.

I agree, was just bringing it up since it was brought up a few times on why it's hard to balance. The scaling can be changed for sure if it's too low or high, or per point of wis, etc