Never Ending Shard Hunt

[daedroth]

and you should probably realize other people have a greater scope of understanding the mechanics of these features than you do. i have helped design a few mmo's and all of them have problems with a raid clan feature. you cant name 1 game in existence that doesnt, because there isnt one. if the clan gets to a point its so large they cba to even care, they cant lose anyway. if they have a shard they will defend it, if they dont they will defend a nonexistent shard, they will just sit there in a group of 20 1x a week and slaughter, just to humor themselves. because it is actually funny. you lose no exp, you lose no gear, you dont lose character rank or standing, you will respawn right in your own guild house, you will run back if you even managed to die. guilds will leave vault empty on purpose. some wont even defend if they are small, and just except 6.x days of use on a shard or just sell them.

then 1 miraculous occasion the server merges to destroy Top guild A, they log on in droves, and when they get to the vault...wha?!! its empty. they all logged on us. someone leaked our attack plans... this happens on games with 4 million players. how do you actually expect it not to with 45.

the only way this is working is with a system of alt use attacker attacks with 5, defender defends with 5(defender uses npcs to help(useful like this, not useful in 20v6)
locked gold so people cannot remove it from guild and it actually be able to be stolen.
some sort of ranking system to actually add value to the system
and a random timer that just goes off (globally announced) when you have X accounts with 25ers online to defend.(stop idling )
or some sort of RP system where teams can try to conquer your dungeon for fun.(future builder training)

other than that its just a grief system.

You have still not read properly, but carry on I am not going to respond anymore after this:

I don't really understand what this means exactly. Why would they make a surrogate guild in this scenario? Are you thinking actual defenders can't defend their keep? They'll be able to defend without hopping though. I honestly don't really think gold should be used as a 'steal' and it should only be based on global shards with the set time system. Otherwise smaller guilds would just be over-run. With shards only you'd at least prevent larger guilds from doing it constantly as they'd probably have full shards, but would expect to be attacked themselves. Doesn't mean smaller guilds couldn't band up, etc. There could be though a gold fee to 'enter' the raid based on your guild size vs their guild size like dae stated. There also could be a maximum raid amount per guild. Let's say only 6 can defend, and 6 can attack.

why do you need npc monsters and doors if you set it up for when u have 17 members online.

NPCs could possibly be ignored/not used, but without doors or some sort of locks you're literally just running to the vault area and end gaming it. Even with your system or the set times, you need obstacles. Otherwise it's literally just a run to the vault.

So it will not be large clan of 200 people versus small clan of 2.

More More Thoughts:

Remove the window of time to raid.
Introduce a HP cost to the shard and a gold cost based on each person sent on the raid. Maybe make it so that you get "warped in" and this costs.

Possible Problems:
Making the reward to raid potentially better than the costs to raid:
The gold gain from raiding is based on the amount people accounts in the Guild being raided (so it may not be worth raiding a small clan if you are a large clan) and the # of raiders left at the end.
Shard can be looted (but it loses a HEAP of HP; this could be based on # of account of raided guild vs # of account of the raiding guild and/or make it so that the HP recovered is based on # of raiders left). Could even make it like the picking up of a scale. Obviously yet again, it would need to be tilted so that large clans raiding small clans get less reward (cost could outweigh the reward if you send too many people) than a small clan raiding a large clan.
Off course a small clan raiding a large clan should be in trouble (too much defences).
This would potentially mean you will be better off or worse off than before you started (as a raider), especially if you are a large clan raiding a small clan.
However if that was to be done this way, there should be some kind of message before you start a raid "this guild is substantially smaller than your guild", "this guild is slightly larger than your guild", some kind of indicator to give you a general idea of the size difference between the guilds ("mine is bigger than yours" pun potential here).

My ideas on how to make it so that it would not be worth it for larger clans to attack smaller ones; since the cost to raid would likely out weigh the rewards. Smaller clans attacking larger ones would find it difficult also because larger clans will have better defences.

More Thoughts:

De-Activated Guild house costs half the cost to buy a guild house to re-activate.
The amount of raided gold you can get is determined by the amount of accounts in clan and how many enemy clan lived (max of 6).
Repeat raids in a set period of time nets you dminishing returns.

... Why use guild gold vaults then? People won't store gold in guilds anymore and will simply make a account that handles the gold and give access to all leaders. If there is a lossless way people will do it.

Then make Guild Bank separate totally. As in you can only get gold into the clan guild through clan tax rate. That way the gold would only be use-able for guild stuff and you could only get gold through the guild tax so there would be no way to avoid gold loss.
If there is no money in the guild then the guild will have no bonuses (no rooms, no shard etc). Guild house is de-activated.

Options:
No Guild house (or a de-activated one due to no money in the guild bank), you cannot raid another guild until guild is up and running.
You need a room to hold raid money (you can only get money from a raid if you have this room).
Raid gold goes to guild bank, because it is "guild gold" which is un-usable for anything other than guild stuff.
You can put gold into the guild bank, but there is a conversion fee.
You can take gold out of the guild bank, but... you guessed it, there is a conversion fee.

... Why use guild gold vaults then? People won't store gold in guilds anymore and will simply make a account that handles the gold and give access to all leaders. If there is a lossless way people will do it.

Then make Guild Bank separate totally. As in you can only get gold into the clan guild through clan tax rate. That way the gold would only be use-able for guild stuff and you could only get gold through the guild tax so there would be no way to avoid gold loss.
If there is no money in the guild then the guild will have no bonuses (no rooms, no shard etc). Guild house is de-activated.

Options:
No Guild house (or a de-activated one due to no money in the guild bank), you cannot raid another guild until guild is up and running.
You need a room to hold raid money (you can only get money from a raid if you have this room).
Raid gold goes to guild bank, because it is "guild gold" which is un-usable for anything other than guild stuff.
You can put gold into the guild bank, but there is a conversion fee.
You can take gold out of the guild bank, but... you guessed it, there is a conversion fee.

So yes, clan COULD leave their vaults empty. But then they would have no money to pay for their guild - which would then be de-activated. Imagine having to take out the money (conversion fee deduction) and then put enough back in (conversion fee deduction) to pay the rent each day?

I like the stolen idea though. You could have a raid or a theft attempt... lower cost/rewards for a break in. No access to the shard though; only the vault.
Possible options:
Only for thieves (maybe assassins, but likely not)
No opposing guild members (maybe a "skill check" on entry, trap disarm).
Solo, or small party only.
If they are spotted by enemy guards (or guard not killed quickly enough) alarm is set off?

Traps:
Alarm: If this is tripped opposing clan is notified someone is robbing their guild.

Should there be notifications on raids? I think so; but how? On entry? or a little before time through rumour? Or through trap?

Eh... need to go!

[daedroth]

Another Idea:

When a clan house is made, it starts of with a generic shard.
When a guild loses its shard, it needs to be replaced in a set period of time or the clan is de-activated.
Possibly allow for the buying of a shard (or a quest) that has no bonuses and cannot be used to heal an existing shard.

[anthriel]

I haven't been following in depth the full scope of all the suggestions here so forgive me if I have misunderstood critical things... I just want to chime in on the following point:

I agree than Terron's point regarding set times for guild house raids/sieges makes the entire system pointless, especially if the frequency is only once or twice a week. The big guilds will just set that time to the 1-2 windows a week where they have most numbers online and then once again it would favour them anyway. Only way it might work if the frequency of vulnerable times is greater (eg daily siege times) and random (such that largely idle clannies can't plan to be on just to defend sieges/raids and PK ppl, they actually need to be incentivised to be active players cos they don't know when they could be vulnerable each day)... Otherwise if you allow the guild to plan when they would like to defend, it's all just advantaging the more numerous guilds once again. In fact the whole system sounds like it could be making it even harder for small, new guilds to pop up as there is such a steep entry curve to get enough members, enough gold to set up a decent dungeon etc etc. I do like he idea, but just that NH's original conceptualisation (and perhaps some of the hybrid shards/guild wars suggestions following it also) seem to be in reality making it worse for achieving guild diversity rather than better.

[daedroth]

I don't think there should be set times either.
Possibly a build up and warning before a raid though.
Guild diversity is hard to get until there are more players.

[NiteHawk]

I haven't been following in depth the full scope of all the suggestions here so forgive me if I have misunderstood critical things... I just want to chime in on the following point:

I agree than Terron's point regarding set times for guild house raids/sieges makes the entire system pointless, especially if the frequency is only once or twice a week. The big guilds will just set that time to the 1-2 windows a week where they have most numbers online and then once again it would favour them anyway. Only way it might work if the frequency of vulnerable times is greater (eg daily siege times) and random (such that largely idle clannies can't plan to be on just to defend sieges/raids and PK ppl, they actually need to be incentivised to be active players cos they don't know when they could be vulnerable each day)... Otherwise if you allow the guild to plan when they would like to defend, it's all just advantaging the more numerous guilds once again. In fact the whole system sounds like it could be making it even harder for small, new guilds to pop up as there is such a steep entry curve to get enough members, enough gold to set up a decent dungeon etc etc. I do like he idea, but just that NH's original conceptualisation (and perhaps some of the hybrid shards/guild wars suggestions following it also) seem to be in reality making it worse for achieving guild diversity rather than better.

That was/is a purpose though, it is your vault, you should have the advantage of picking when you can defend it. Otherwise if you can be raided whenever then it really defeats the purpose. This (to me) hurts smaller guilds rather than befitting them. At least smaller guilds can pick when they are more active as well. They'd just be raided when they have no people on, which for smaller guilds is a thing probably. The idea isn't to make guilds vaults open 24/7 or easily attackable by the attackers though. It can be more frequent though in terms of raiding, the above was just an example.

Having a system that both guilds 'accept' the raid means that no one is going to raid. What would be the point? Why would anyone want to be raided by someone bigger? Why would a big guild that has maxed out their guild shards want to be raided? They would decline it obviously. Obviously this system would probably be more like capture the flag but with vaults on both guilds halls being attackable which is a neat idea but if no ones going to use it then it doesn't make much of a system. If you have shards, you wouldn't want to lose them, so you wouldn't raid normally. Even if the numbers are equal, shards would be a risky thing to lose.

Having a system where the attacker gets to pick the raid, also benefits the bigger guilds obviously.

We also did talk about limits to how many players can raid per time which works with any system and is probably a good idea... I.E. 6 people defending vs 6 people raiding. This could be a thing as well possibly to help smaller guilds out.

Obviously their is going to be a max dungeon limit too. But no matter how you aim it they'll need at least 'some gold'. A dungeon won't drain the gold of a large guild otherwise smaller guilds wouldn't be able to do anything. I get where you're coming from on the whole smaller guilds issue, but I feel like it's being used as a limiter and we really need some ideas. Of course we need to make sure smaller guilds can raid too and build, but I'm for ideas on how building could be fair for everyone. Guild gold needs to be used up, and this was meant to be part of a gold sink. It doesn't mean houses need to be 1mil gold, but they also can't be worth nothing.

[Terron]

-keep guild houses in pk zones to defend against brigands

-limit guild houses to only allow level 25s

-guild gold should be locked to guild purchases and no longer removable.

-set guild "door" to be revealed when the guild has members online(any accounts logged in with level 25+ characters)

-brigands can pick the locks anytime the door is revealed.

-once successfully picked an alert goes out globally and timer starts

-guild door will reseal after X amount of time

-guild door is open longer amounts of time based on the INT score of the brigand that disarmed the door

-the attackers are limited to a maximum number to be equal to the number of defending characters.(if there is 30 defenders multiple clans may have to ally to achieve what they want)

-attackers are limited to a minimum of 1

-as the defenders grow in numbers so to can the attackers numbers.

-guild vaults are guarded by purchasable bosses(similar to oads) however, these oads have no gear unless you outfit them. this gear cannot be sb to the boss or guild.

-when vault boss dies he drops all equipped gear(don't let him die)

-behind the vault boss is a special guild banner with 10000 HPS(upgrades available for a price/oads/pp etc), if this dies your defense fails

-shards may only be kept in guild vaults and instantly go there if you get one to drop, if currently guildless the shard is forfeit for a gold reward from your deity. shards may not be sold, removed, or traded so get out there and find em.

if defense fails guild can lose whatever. i would suggest something like 10% of current shards hps/time and 20% of their gold and possibly a shard or each attacking guild that completes the raid.

-20% gold dividends(i suggest 6% divided to the remaining attackers,6% to the remaining attackers guilds, 4% to the thief that picked the lock and 4% to the thieves guild)

-characters need a statistic on info screen displaying how many times they have failed defending or defended successfully, aswell as raids failed/raid successes and a total gold tally of how much they have pillaged as in gold amount and raid bosses slain, vault npcs killed, guild doors picked, guild banners destroyed. real standings to promote this part of the game.


overall this adds a sneaky//opportunistic theory to the mix. what if guild A has only 6 online and you know 100% they are oading? go rape their guild door and raid lol. is the large guild so complacent you can walk right up to the entrance of their guild and pick the vault door? dunno guess we will find out.

other thoughts - im not sure how picking a lock will be implemented, so i have a system you could use. guild doors have large scale HPs in which can be upgraded etc for guild gold via armor, mr , hp upgrades, self heal(very slow so 1 thief can still succeed) etc
thieves get a new ammo type item called lockpicks they would function similar to arrows but have an AD rate that only work on doors.
lockpicks can have different properties even rare magical ones.(future oad content or bonuses applied by enchanters using brill scrolls etc.) regardless of rarity they cost 1 ammo per use so use wisely. basic picks would be available at any thieves guild. so in theory the thief would backstab or regular attack the door until it breaks down.


overall it takes the beat the death out of the shard theory out of it. and guild vaults can never be empty if they are active,they will get shards. the set times are erased and npcs are wanted. and numbers are balanced enough to succeed. still doesnt fix a 5 man team trying to raid vs 17 but thats their problem to deal with. make an ally etc.

hope this helps

[Folder]

Pretty good ideas in there Terron

[NiteHawk]

Guilds in the wild aren't a bad idea. But there was probably going to be a system where you warp to a guild house from certain areas in the city but those entry points can be PK areas. (AKA you warp outside of the guild hall and that whole area is PK.) This will prevent the world from being cluttered and it can be automated very easily. Automation is way better in these scenarios anyways.

I like the brigands picking the lock, I like the NPCs that are equippable. Both are very cool ideas. The attackers vs defenders will probably work too in terms of how many can come. The risk is a defending guild who is larger would obviously have the upper hand, but the attackers could band with others yeah. I agree with the members online bit/level 25 chars only.

I think a boss could drop gear 50% of the time. Mainly to do with 'removal' of gear in the world. It would help out probably.

-guild door will reseal after X amount of time
-guild door is open longer amounts of time based on the INT score of the brigand that disarmed the door

What do people think would be a good base time vs additional per INT point? 10minutes + INT for example?

i would suggest something like 10% of current shards hps/time and 20% of their gold and possibly a shard or each attacking guild that completes the raid.
-20% gold dividends(i suggest 6% divided to the remaining attackers,6% to the remaining attackers guilds, 4% to the thief that picked the lock and 4% to the thieves guild)

Gold if it was locked might be a thing, but having gold go to the thief might be an issue because people would abuse it to remove gold. I.E. Get your mate to keep raiding you to export the gold to real currency. 20% might be too high too. Maybe 10 or 15% though total. Alot of guilds have a fair amount of gold if they were to stack. We can still make guid gold usable in potions/etc that could be bought using it, though they cannot be sold back just in case, gets rid of more gold... So guild stores as per say.

I am not sure what you mean by 10% shards HP. If they raid for the shard wouldn't they take it anyways?

other thoughts - im not sure how picking a lock will be implemented, so i have a system you could use. guild doors have large scale HPs in which can be upgraded etc for guild gold via armor, mr , hp upgrades, self heal(very slow so 1 thief can still succeed) etc
thieves get a new ammo type item called lockpicks they would function similar to arrows but have an AD rate that only work on doors.
lockpicks can have different properties even rare magical ones.(future oad content or bonuses applied by enchanters using brill scrolls etc.) regardless of rarity they cost 1 ammo per use so use wisely. basic picks would be available at any thieves guild. so in theory the thief would backstab or regular attack the door until it breaks down.

overall it takes the beat the death out of the shard theory out of it. and guild vaults can never be empty if they are active,they will get shards. the set times are erased and npcs are wanted. and numbers are balanced enough to succeed. still doesnt fix a 5 man team trying to raid vs 17 but thats their problem to deal with. make an ally etc.

hope this helps

Well it at least prevents a smaller guild from getting screwed though in terms of numbers. However, there probably should be a limit to how many times you can be raided per day or per hour(s)? A 17 man guild can alternate through 17 people, while the smaller guild will get tired.

I think lockpicking as a HP system might work long as it's not so tedious. Maybe one lockpick use uses up all stamina and does x4 (still can use one lockpick per we just scale the gold to whatever we think x1 woulda been at to x4). We can use a /lockpick skill just to make it more legit tbh. I don't think the doors themselves need to be NPCs just for lockpicking but I'm not sure yet, they 'could' be. Pretty good though.

You prob should be able to hide and lockpick with a very low fail chance that will alert the room. Kind of like stealing but a lower chance to fail depending on INT.

I'm not sure about the banner or having the vault system be picked too. Further needing brigands to do it. It would make protecting handy too, but either or can work here. NPCs if any, should have to be defeated to proceed. So there has to be a max limit on how many NPCs you can add, on the fewer count too.

Allies should be a thing. eventually ill make a color system for that too tbh. Allies and Enemies.

[daedroth]

A much better contribution Terron

This might over complicate the lock system, but how about a physical HP and a lock HP.
The lock HP is what the thief will be after (basically picking the lock, "damage" could be a mix of INT/AGL instead of strength; new pick lock skill introduced, lockpick value increases "damage"). More subtle less chance of alarm going off (assuming an alarm system is being used).
The physical HP is basically people just attacking the door to destroy it. The unsubtle way that will raise alarm.
Both sets of HP regen overtime.

Alarm System (optional):
Could be a value that once reached notifies the guild being raided.
It is raised by traps going off, length of time to pick locks, guild guard encountered and length of time to dispatch (if you don't kill a guard who spots you it will raise the alarm... bribery allowed? be funny if it was and used CHR).
Door being smashed etc.

[JadeFalcon]

I totally want a banner thing!
Even for bragging purposes, imagine clan X capturing and ransoming clan Y banner! Or dumping it the garbage!

Should be an item basically proving the defeat of the enemy clan at its enemies, so a white item with a description like this:

"On September 15th 2017, the glorious forces of clan X captured this flag from their unworthy foe of clan Y. Eternal shame for them".


We could setup a competition for "most flags captured"