Item progression at 25

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Folder
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Item progression at 25

Postby Folder » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:16 pm

We've had some threads lately about why people may ultimately not stick around. There were some fine ideas thrown around but I wanted to give another idea here on something that I think is an issue. This only applies to lvl25 progression.

Gear progression at 25:
Weapons first:
These are not in an absolutely terrible spot, although I think white/green weapons should be lowered. The difference between green and purple is not really that big, especially depending on the class.

Using a 20 STR zerker a green (emerald axe) results in 153.9 AD. Purple Void Blade results in 160.6 AD. If Dual wielding you have 169.3 compared to 176.6. 7 damage difference between a green and the best sword you can have drop (discounting hums before someone gets cute). You can also look at this as a 4.4% damage increase.

Rings/Amulets:
These suck, not really any other way to put it. They are not worth grinding for, either the PP form or the craftable ones.

Armor:
This is the worst offender imo. Let's take heavy plate as an example. I'm using 150pp item AC as a base for purple OaDs here, and items are all decked:
Green armor = onyx plate (66ac), grims helm (11ac), salamander scale (15ac) = 92ac
Purple armor = 150pp heavy armor/helm/shield = 99ac
Purp+1 armor = 400pp heavy armor/helm/shield = 104ac

Before going further the AC formula as posted by NH:
"10% of your overall armor (shield/armor/helmet/etc) will be your passive armor rate in percent. So if you have 100 armor, you get 10% passive armor absorption. If I attack you with 200 damage, it will become 180 damage.


For active absorption/deflection it is:
-Every 1 point of armor with armor/helmet becomes 0.5% absorption chance. If you absorb, you get 20%-50% damage removed. (random)
-Every 1 point of shield becomes 0.9% deflection chance. If you deflect, you get 20% to 50% damage removed. (random)
You can do both in the same round, totaling 40%-100% removed.

For example someone with 100AC, 18AC being shield would be:
Absorb Chance: 82AC0.5 = 41% chance to absorb.
Deflect Chance: 18AC0.9 = 16.2% chance to deflect.
BOTH ROLLS ARE INDIVIDUAL."

Going from green to 150pp items results in a gain of 7ac, 2 of which are shield AC. Boils down to .7% passive damage reduction, 2.5% chance to absorb, 1.8% chance to deflect.

Going from green to 400pp items results in a gain of 12ac, 3 of which are shield AC. Boils down to 1.2% passive damage reduction, 4.5% chance to absorb, 2.7% chance to deflect.

Now think about how easy it is to get green gear, and how hard it is to get all purple gear (let's be honest this is IMPOSSIBLE for your average player). Hell I've played an awful lot and I don't have all purple armor on any character. The point here is that armor progression is borderline pointless. Grinding for many, many months to gain such a minuscule improvement is a big problem. I don't have the motivation for that and I don't expect many people do either.

The gear chase needs to be real, and it needs to matter. It also needs to be obtainable. I mean the game has been out for over a year now and afaik no one has 400pp armor slotted everywhere. Kismet was about there but this was also someone who played 12+ hours every single day (not to berate that, do whatever you want). I don't own a single piece of 400pp gear, for reference.

I suggest lowering the efficacy of lower tier gear so that upgrades matter more. I also think armor should be improved overall as it doesn't FEEL like a huge difference dpsing down a monk vs dpsing down a guardian. Also PP items are overpriced still. These are out of reach for the majority of players.
Last edited by Folder on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Terron
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Re: Armor progression at 25

Postby Terron » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:47 pm

yeah ive talked about this recently. the spread just needs higher.

when it comes to armors at 25, the system should be white, white with hums, green , greens with hums, blue, blue hums, purple etc and so on. the overlap needs to go away. white humming items shouldnt turn green, green shouldnt turn blue etc. this opens up a huge range for future item development aswell. this means a bit of work on those storeboughts but in the end so worth it.

i think the overall idea should be to list purple +3 as 100% efficiency and leave oranges the ability to surpass 100%. so basically if a purple plus 3 chest piece is 66 ac orange would be 67 all the way to orange +3 topping off at 70. this would be a table sort of like this one below:

orange +3 = 70
orange +2 = 69
orange +1 = 68
orange flat= 67
purple +3= 66 (100% efficiency)
purple +2 = 65
purple +1 = 64
purple flat = 63
blue +3 = 62
blue +2 = 61
blue +1 = 60
blue flat = 59
green +3 = 58
green +2 = 57
green +1 = 56
green flat = 55
white +3 = 54
white +2 = 53
white +1 = 52
white flat = 51

shields and helms obviously wuldnt have +3s so a smaller table and range. but the overall idea should be to spread this gap out so i cant go get a green soft hum item and be set for life basically because id have to accomplish 100 oad drops before i get a better piece.
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Lateralus
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Re: Armor progression at 25

Postby Lateralus » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:57 pm

I think the actual formulas are actually pretty OK but if we change the actual values people have and the spacing between items it should have more effect and we can keep the formulas intact.

Armor Scaling:
This is something being looked and will be considered. We are already going to be adding in a bit more ac (for rings, boots, gloves, etc) so we are going to have to adjust the system already. I agree armor should have more progression at level 25.

Currently its just 1ac for all armor besides heavy body. I agree it should be higher and think we should move to 2ac per step for shield,helm and 3 per body armors.

This would give players a bit more incentive to progress (a white perfect humming wouldnt = a purple anymore)
People would also feel the difference a bit more when upgrading a piece of armor. On that note would give people a reason to buy the 400pp armor as well.

Rings/Amulets:
Totally agree they should matter more
Rings were introduced at 5hp each but this is really just a starting point will go up to 10hp. I think they seem hard to make because only 1-2 bosses drop their mats. We are adding about 3-4 more minis that will drop their mats so they will be a lot more common. I think these are in an ok place tbh. There will be diff ring types too.

Amulets again need work I know we wanna start stuff small but its just too small tbh. I am not sure even all of them do anything and if they do its wayy to small to to notice even the pp ones.

I suggest changing things around like this:

1ac keep at 10k
2ac 100k
3-4ac 100pp (keep in mind armors going to be changed to be a bit more overall)
.5 stats 500k
1 stat - 500pp


Scale charging prices accordingly


tldr: Good points guys I agree! #makeprogressionmatteragain

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Styx
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Re: Armor progression at 25

Postby Styx » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:52 pm

If materials only drop from bosses, this will be good for the big guilds to become more powerful.

:?:

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NiteHawk
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Re: Armor progression at 25

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:28 am

Lateralus wrote:I think the actual formulas are actually pretty OK but if we change the actual values people have and the spacing between items it should have more effect and we can keep the formulas intact.

Armor Scaling:
This is something being looked and will be considered. We are already going to be adding in a bit more ac (for rings, boots, gloves, etc) so we are going to have to adjust the system already. I agree armor should have more progression at level 25.

Currently its just 1ac for all armor besides heavy body. I agree it should be higher and think we should move to 2ac per step for shield,helm and 3 per body armors.

This would give players a bit more incentive to progress (a white perfect humming wouldnt = a purple anymore)
People would also feel the difference a bit more when upgrading a piece of armor. On that note would give people a reason to buy the 400pp armor as well.

Rings/Amulets:
Totally agree they should matter more
Rings were introduced at 5hp each but this is really just a starting point will go up to 10hp. I think they seem hard to make because only 1-2 bosses drop their mats. We are adding about 3-4 more minis that will drop their mats so they will be a lot more common. I think these are in an ok place tbh. There will be diff ring types too.

Amulets again need work I know we wanna start stuff small but its just too small tbh. I am not sure even all of them do anything and if they do its wayy to small to to notice even the pp ones.

I suggest changing things around like this:

1ac keep at 10k
2ac 100k
3-4ac 100pp (keep in mind armors going to be changed to be a bit more overall)
.5 stats 500k
1 stat - 500pp


Scale charging prices accordingly


tldr: Good points guys I agree! #makeprogressionmatteragain


What we talked about and this is incorrect though, unless we add all the new points to PURPLE items. Doubling the armor scaling as it is makes the items exactly the same, it just gives you more options but in reality we should pump a little to blue and up.

What I mean is we can make armor double valued, so the scaling is higher, but people with 80% absorb would obviously be stupid. If we doubled, 1.5, 1.25 armor, but left the deflect amount somewhat near (it can go up a little, but I would avoid going too crazy, though tests having 50% absorb really does help.)

I.e. if armor max was now lets say, 25% more then what it is, a little of that can go into blue items, and a good chunk of it can go into purple.

I.E. for heavy armor. if current max is lets say 60, another 25% would be 15 more armor. Instead of adding it to white and green, we add lets say 5 armor to blue, and 10 armor to purple. Obviously this means the absorb rate will have to be adjusted so that purple rates are around where it is now, and will mean the per armor will lower a little, but it should play out a bit more proper that way and make blue and especially purple items valuable. We will probably want to double armor values though in order for cloth to even work. So whites and greens might get a slight adjustment so they aren't terrible based on a 25% increase as I talked about here, but you get the point.

Weapons could be the same but I think on a far less extreme scale as I think they are OK as it is. But we can pump up purple and blue items lets say +1/+1 and then adjust the overall class modifiers.

I was honestly also aiming to bring out armors and weapons that have special effects, but this was meant to be after all purple items are done. Having all purple items complete has been rough because theres only a few active builders and it's taking a lot less time too. Though with the change above this would be a thing we can add WITHOUT making them too powerful. The base purple item for example let's say if its 120 AC for heavy armor instead of 60AC, and blue is 100AC. This means you have literally 20AC to play with items now. You could make a 115AC purple BUT with 15% absorb to animals, or a 110AC Purple but with 30HP more. Things like that.

Having more play will mean you can play with special effects more, without making the item too powerful, and leaving the 'highest AC with high effects' to quests items, and introduce 'slightly lower AC items with low effects' without making them op.

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Lateralus
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Re: Armor progression at 25

Postby Lateralus » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:36 am

NiteHawk wrote:

I.e. if armor max was now lets say, 25% more then what it is, a little of that can go into blue items, and a good chunk of it can go into purple.

I.E. for heavy armor. if current max is lets say 60, another 25% would be 15 more armor. Instead of adding it to white and green, we add lets say 5 armor to blue, and 10 armor to purple. Obviously this means the absorb rate will have to be adjusted so that purple rates are around where it is now, and will mean the per armor will lower a little, but it should play out a bit more proper that way and make blue and especially purple items valuable. We will probably want to double armor values though in order for cloth to even work. So whites and greens might get a slight adjustment so they aren't terrible based on a 25% increase as I talked about here, but you get the point.

Weapons could be the same but I think on a far less extreme scale as I think they are OK as it is. But we can pump up purple and blue items lets say +1/+1 and then adjust the overall class modifiers.

I was honestly also aiming to bring out armors and weapons that have special effects, but this was meant to be after all purple items are done. Having all purple items complete has been rough because theres only a few active builders and it's taking a lot less time too. Though with the change above this would be a thing we can add WITHOUT making them too powerful. The base purple item for example let's say if its 120 AC for heavy armor instead of 60AC, and blue is 100AC. This means you have literally 20AC to play with items now. You could make a 115AC purple BUT with 15% absorb to animals, or a 110AC Purple but with 30HP more. Things like that.

Having more play will mean you can play with special effects more, without making the item too powerful, and leaving the 'highest AC with high effects' to quests items, and introduce 'slightly lower AC items with low effects' without making them op.



I think all of that sounds like a pretty good idea. I can see doubling armor or whatever to leave more of a gap. I also agree that white > green prob doesnt need much more spacing.

Assuming doubled armor count something like this could work?


Current Medium
White 23
Green 25
Blue 26
Purple 27

Suggested Medium
White 46
Green 48
Blue 52
Purple 58

----------------------------------------------------------------

Current Light Helm
White 2
Green 3
Blue 4
Purple 5

Suggested Light Helm
White 4
Green 6
Blue 8
Purple 10?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggested Gloves and Gloves
White 1
Green 3
Blue 5
Purple 7

(maybe have a few level 20 gloves/boots but only at white level and 1ac? most would start at 25)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know we are adding quite a bit with boots and gloves ac but I think its kind of critical to have those options of progression seeing classes like casters just have 2 armors and somewhat of a weapon to progress through.

Something you also gotta keep in mind with doubling is it kind of makes humming a bit worthless if the spread is too big.

Terron
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Re: Item progression at 25

Postby Terron » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:13 pm

if the idea is to add abilities to armors etc so theres a more adequate range for building, you could change humming altogether. humming could be the max power of enchantments allowed on the item. hums could give a small flat bonus to the power of enchantments, but i think it would be cooler if say a +2 hum could only have 2 extra enchantments placed on it. while the color of gear sets the power of the enchantments.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
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Lateralus
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Re: Item progression at 25

Postby Lateralus » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:35 am

I think we have a few goals with this system revamp:

Goal 1 here is to give players room to progress (a reason to progress).

Goal 2 is to keep current players from being discouraged that the system is changing. What I mean is no one wants their top humming gear to be worthless. In some cases its harder to get a good humming than some purples. Are they going to be pissed off we are totally change this system? While I don't think a green humming should be better than a purple I also don't think a purple should be 3-4 armor higher than a perfect humming blue. This is a balance we will have to find I guess. Fact of the matter is some items are going to get buffs and some are going to get nerfs no matter how we change this system so we need to keep that in mind.

Goal 3 is to keep things somewhat simple. I am always pushing simple as possible. I think its more approachable for players and easier for us to balance. I know for a fact I would rather have a more simple balanced system than a huge unbalanced system. Something else to keep in mind is its really just hawk and I working on systems. We all know how swamped he is since hes doing all the coding, site stuff, build server stuff, etc...


With all that in mind I think I would revamp my suggestion of how the armors should work.


Current Medium
White 23
Green 25
Blue 26
Purple 27

Suggested Medium
White 23
Green 25
Blue 27
Purple 30

----------------------------------------------------------------

Current Light Helm
White 2
Green 3
Blue 4
Purple 5

Suggested Light Helm
White 2
Green 3
Blue 5
Purple 7

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggested Gloves and Gloves
White 1
Green 2
Blue 4
Purple 6



I think the above leaves enough room to progress and add in other features without making old humming obsolete. We would not have to deal with doubling all equipment and changing all the equipment. I think doubling could work but we would have to change all equipment instead of just level 25 gear. also I think we would have to change humming to double as well (which would totally mess up below level 25 gear).

I think the adding humming effects would be cool but that even complicates things a bit more. Kind of a balancing nightmare considering we are going to be adding enchanting prefixes and suffixes too. so i mean if we add effects up to +3 that means an item could have up to 6 effects? 2 prefixes 3 humming effects plus any regular effects the item might have like beast slayer or whatever too. just kinda a balancing nightmare tbh.

Terron
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Re: Item progression at 25

Postby Terron » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:47 pm

i was thinking of it being more like sockets, so the enchantments players could place in the humming gear would be somewhat basic.

prefix armor of suffix +3

with 3 health enchantments placed inside for 45 hps(15 each) or something.


im all for keeping it simple aswell. nitehawk mentioned doubling the armors so that ranges were 20 ish per color tier. hums can still add the armor bonus. decking is by far the dumbest thing there is, im sorry but if i was a god, im not blessing my enemies armors and weapons period.

if all we do is add a couple points of armor whats preventing the same issue next year? nothing.

some people have farmed green/blue +3 gear and would be uset by changing hums. that is true. but wont they be more upset that they farmed that shit and it has no prefix/suffix? yes lol.

truth is whatever happens, happens to everyone equally, everything blue+ is getting buffed, noone should be butthurt.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

anthriel
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Re: Item progression at 25

Postby anthriel » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:44 pm

I'm abt confused as to why this is needed. Isn't adding the prefixes and suffixes going to give a new dimension to progression anyway? Changing all this colour stuff is confusing for players cos currently some items come standard in white, green, blue or even purple. Does that mean that theoretically white/green flaming hakamas will start to drop under this proposed change or will minimum still be blue? This colour system is confusing as is already (and would be nice to change), but it has been balanced that way economically in game by now. By changing colour system now, I feel that too many players may find themselves pissed off by changes in the value (functional and economic) of their items. And I would hate to see more ppl leave the game for whatever reason.

For example, a player had a chanter equipped with a +2 void cloak (blue) who recently got a fiery tunic (standard purple). These items have the same AC currently. Say this player thought "ah I don't need the fiery tunic cos I've already sb the +2 void cloak" and so decided to sell the fiery tunic on auction house. Based on suggested values in Lat's post, the fiery tunic could end up a lot better post change and so that player could feel like "wtf, I've been robbed by this change!"

Quite frankly the high cost of unsoulbinding means people will rarely change a humming green/blue for a blue/purple item when they are functionally equivalent. So changing the color system now (while would be nice to get things neater) may end up with lots of negative economical consequences and disgruntled players. Probably better off to just add the prefix/suffix system on top and save hassle from ppl accusing staff of moving the goalposts without adequate compensation imho.

Possibly could be nice to standardise colouring system just to make it less confusing (example with weapons would be ruby axe and peppermint sword which have same AD but diff colours... These should be same colour to be less confusing?). But if you change peppermint sword to be greater than ruby axe based on its colour being blue vs ruby axe's green, then you would invalidate lots of player's previous game decisions and possibly piss em off (which I suggest is unwise given we already struggling to retain players)

Peace.


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