Magic

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Folder
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Magic

Postby Folder » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:05 pm

Soooo. Magic is Godzilla-ing everything in sight. Are we talking about this yet? Even with 18 wis characters I feel like chanter food. DMs are same story. Wither > lolurded.

I dunno, something needs to change. Magic doesn't absorb and with the very high hit rates it's a problem. Chanters/DMs are king everything in PvP right now. I don't even do events anymore because I don't care to play chanter and if you don't you're pretty much setting yourself up to get fucked on.
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Lateralus
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Re: Magic

Postby Lateralus » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:16 am

Its pretty clear the meta in 1v1 is pure magic for the win (necro > sorc > everything else) and even group those two dominate.

Magic resist from 4 > 4.5 would help a lot. Lizards drakes and ho would still get smoked but atleast de halfling and goblin would win more than lose (I feel like now its around 33% win rate with a de halfling or goblin vs a necro or chanter)

10 wis would stay the base (24%) but at 20 wis you would be at (69%) instead of 64% not a huge change but prob just enough.

I think once we put that base in things would work a lot better.



As for necros themselves they are pretty out of control in atleast 1v1.

They might deal less damage than a sorc but they gain back enough to make it so their net damage is quite a bit more per round.

for example might deal 700 a round compared to 800 but they also gain back 160 so overall they are +60 on sorc.

They also hit quite a bit more by landing wither which is a very easy land sometimes decreasing mr by 11%

They also have a stronger pet doing more damage and if it isnt getting hit is healing them as well. I mean zombies are not much weaker than ranger pets and necros can just resummon a full health one with 1400hp with 1 stam... lets them dominate pve as well.

They have a rot spell that does a ton of damage and lasts forever. its very likely to land after wither hits.

They have more ac than sorcs for some reason even though they are supposed to be the debuff masters? arnt all casters supposed to be "glass cannon" types? this is something that could be looked at when we redo how armor works but just pointing it out


I dont think they should be over nerfed but a slight change to all spell resist as pointed out above, a change to wither and maybe a weaker stoneskin seems like it might put them back where they need to be.

Otherwise I think its maybe a good idea to remove wither from 1v1 events like how ff is removed from some of them. it just puts them over the top and its pretty clear to see necros and sorcs dominate even now that people are making halfling de dwarf goblins more and more.

Terron
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Re: Magic

Postby Terron » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:23 am

lol yeah wither is rape. hardly ever see a high int dm not hit 2-4x a round even on 20 wis chanters. think burd said 20 int was -7.5% mr? so whats 24 int? -11.7 or so..?
i played a dm with 20 int as a main. they are absolute trash, gnome dms just gain alot more hps and do enough damage to kill. 20 int didnt at all. (ftr i was a 24 agi halfling with 20 int and only ended up 3 koth victories, all 3 vs tempest when he was half orc zerk, lost every other fight even to drake ninjas, horc slayers etc) better off a gnome theyre dead in 8 hits instead of 14. obvious u dont need agi if they are already dead.

wither probably should be adjusted a little. maybe 25% pierce instead of 50, and definitely dont need to buff damage and nerf mr so much. cant have it not pierce, it basically made dms worthless when wither never landed. could ban wither from koth but thats lame. rather have it fixed.

chanter isnt all that great imo. but they will win the even up fight against mr most of the time because nothing reduces their damage where high armor nullifies a decent portion of melee.
elf chanter is probably the best mage in 1v1s. 22+ agi atleast 90 armor and decent life. yet these are even food to gnome dms.

basically you have 18 wisdom at 56% mr and 21 agi is around 55.5% dodge (most people have 23 agi on melee) magic damage and melee both kill in around 8 hits, problem is melee will have 3/8 absorbed so they need to hit 11-12x.

bezerkers losing -8% mr with wither on top they pretty much get 2 rounds to charge up flurry and hit all 3 or their dead. so no chance ever

1v1 casters do actually have weaknesses, stalkers with high wis/pet block, bards with wisdom , monks, slayers etc. i just (and most others obviously) just think taking a caster is easier. biggest problem i see is noone uses mr races that are over 16-18 wis tho. maybe stop half-assing it? you wanted a triangle of mr>magic>no mr. i think perhaps people should play that triangle. not stop half way up the mr point.


6v6 is becoming a problem tho. 4+ casters in group almost guaranteed to round anyone. only elevated chances with int song/wither. sometimes multiple healers can outlast them but so far it isnt very often.

EDIT: i do think alot of this will get fixed with prefix/suffix gear. can get some decent antimagic gear for your mr builds that will definitely give them the edge. im hoping anyway.



OTHER: i dont think barbarians need the -8% mr, i think they should just take increased damage per spell. like +25 damage received from incoming spells. lets resisting become a factor instead of just resisting none.

druids - bear morph seems to get hit by my spells alot more often than cat. could just be rng but i think its worth looking at.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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Inverno
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Re: Magic

Postby Inverno » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:29 am

Wither+Slow combo is brutal actually. Hard to counter, even with high mr races.
Inverno - Saurian Priest
--
Lutz - Drakeblood Ninja
Kim - Elf Ninja
Mai - Elemental Ninja
Olrox - Dwarf DeathMage
Tumbizaletalayer - Half Orc Guardian
Bastian - Goblin Cavalier Bark Bark!
Neymar - Saurian Stalker
Mime - Saurian Minstrel

anthriel
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Re: Magic

Postby anthriel » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:08 pm

My 2 cents: Magic did need to become a bigger threat to low wis melee builds but it's probably gone too far in latest update.

Base hitrate for melee pvp is meant to be 40% b4 adjustments are made for agility differences (probably max around 10% either way). The fact that even most melee builds would need 18wis to even reduce a mage's pvp hitrate to somewhere approaching 40% is why magic trumps all. Plus mage's can also sap/blind/wither/rot/fade etc for advantage and in latest update their HP has been boosted such that some gnome mage's can have higher HP than saurian melee. Mage's are no longer glass cannons but super dps and debuff masters with decent HP.

Basically almost no melee build (except for very lucky Horc slayers) can potentially damage a Mage fast enough to not die in return within the 2ish rounds it takes for the Mage to kill them. Those "balance race" builds investing in wis likely have sacrificed their damage potential (eg lower Str or Agi) and HP for a mediocre MR% that still doesn't allow them to stay alive long enough to kill 1000hp mages.

And yes in group pvp the problem is compounded such that several mages can round almost anything.

Possible solutions off the top of my head:
- minus dodge agility or HP gains for Mage classes (make em more glass cannons)
- make gnome base end back to max 16 based on the recent changes to base HP etc (adjustment against gnome specific builds having great magic and potentially better HP than 18end races)
- change MR scaling to allow greater incremental MR per point of wisdom (eg 5-6% per point of wis) to give greater reward for those who invest in wis and penalise those who don't
- adjust base pvp hitrate to be greater than 40% (eg 50%) when against a Mage class
- leave mage's as super awesome but greatly increase mana costs (for debuff spells or even all spells) to economically 'burden' mages (ie enjoy being awesome but it will break your bank)
- remove barb MR penalties or increase Assy stab damage/hitrate against Mage classes so that there is actually something that is a magekiller (now that Druids have been nerfed to not play that role)

Shrugs.

Terron
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Re: Magic

Postby Terron » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 pm

might aswell fix wither and leave mages alone atm. hate to say it but atleast 4 classes get used this way instead of just slayer army with a priest or 2. let prefix/suffix gear come out see what happens.

its the same ol curse every game runs into. balance for 1v1 or balance for 6v6? the obvious answer is 1v1. (some group fight gunna be whack, wouldnt matter with huge playebase anyway. 30 tards smashin each other everyones dead as fk)

the objective is a 3 tier combat system. would u run a 20 str horc slayer? nope. would u run a 19 agi saurian ninja? nope then why would u think 16-18 wis is going to win 99.9% vs magic. im not saying its perfect here cuz it isnt, but the whole wisdom thing it like this: "fk wisdom" u got a melee badass, "halfass commitment" - u got a crit thats weak to both magic and melee but isnt overwhelmed instantly, or "caster" where u pretty much suck if armor doesn't save you. cuz it sure isnt dodges.

i think the bigger problem here is low str stats just dont work well enough. ( i tried saying 10 str being 100 damage and 24 being 240 is too much importance. 10 needs boosted to 150, 24 str stay the same - this is figuratively, i dont know the real damage)

noone wants to level 19+ wisdom melee characters cuz they are just fkin fodder to slayers and the old meta. and then just cling to the illusion that 12-14 wisdom should keep them alive like its some kind of magical 24 agility. it does on occasion in 1v1 vs mages and the lack of wisdom commitment lets you win vs mr builds 95% of the time. so why cryass about losing to magic 95%? its the same difference.


maybe if i take a gnome and run 16 22 17 10 18 20, it should defeat half orcs atleast 40%, its got 16 str that should suffice...
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Folder
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Re: Magic

Postby Folder » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:28 pm

I made my zerker 18wis specifically so it could fight magic but lolgg nope. The big dick of magic just laughs at that puny wisdom D:. I should imagine dark elves should be pretty solid against casters, certainly not guaranteed wins all day but it should feel pretty good. It doesn't feel very good at all right now.

Don't overnerf into uselessness, but some balance is definitely in order imo.
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Terron
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Re: Magic

Postby Terron » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:16 pm

well zerks are a huge letdown cuz 18 wisdom is only 48% mr on them. add wither to that its 36-40. 8 point investment wastedto just be a saurian that class definitely needs work vs casters.

im really hoping prefix/suffix equipment changes the scope of gameplay (1v1)

i dont think anything is changing 6v6. nerf casters game will be all slayers, delete slayers games all zerk, buff casters slayers/zerks go away. games already went through quite a few flipflop metachanges from mage to slayer and back and back etc.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Magic

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:26 pm

Anyways alot of these values are wrong but 24 INT is 8.25% removal of MR (It's not double just caues its 24INT because theres a initial base, so having 20 int etc doesn't make it a huge difference for wither). It's like losing two wis points at the moment. With barbarians also at the moment since zerkers and slayers (esp slayers) being the hard hitters they lost some MR. the MR could be looked at obviously with them, maybe slayers should lose more then zerkers, and zerkers don't lose as much as they do now.

ATM it is 24% (base) resists with 10 wisdom and 64% resists with 20 wisdom. Before I would say the resists was 20% to 84% resists. I would say we can try 5% instead of 4% possibly. Let's start a base at 25%, and max it out around 75%. That would kind of be a middle man between the two. INT doesn't effect

I don't want to get into giant changes, it would have to be smaller changes. Otherwise we end up with the flip flop at the moment. It's better to focus on a couple prime things first then adjust other things once that's sorted. There's so much X and Y and Z and AB and AZ fix this but when combined all together it often is too much from the last attempt. I think the two prime suspects seems to be MR (MR per point and base MR on classes/races) and wither itself.

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Re: Magic

Postby Folder » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:57 pm

Yes no giant changes are needed, the system works it's just a little off imo. If you have 2 chanters you can basically instakill an orc or lizard and it's ALMOST guaranteed as it stands right now. We want low wis to get hurt but there's no such thing as 2 melee insta killing something because it has 19 agi you know?
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