Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

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Kruell
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Kruell » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:01 pm

Oh, and having a "New Player" Guild that all players start in. Players are automatically kicked out at level 9 or they can leave earlier for their own guild. I know players don't spend a lot of time at those levels but many people create new characters often and this would be a good way for communication of new players and people who normally wouldn't speak with each other.

I can actually see people keeping a level 8 atl just to recruit new players or help out.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:28 pm

Well there is a newbie chat for that I just need to broadcast new chars too. Maybe I'll see about a newbie guild in the future.


But yeah a zone chat would be good, I might look into that but it probably won't be this update around otherwise I"ll never get a release going :P

anthriel
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Re: Clan Rivalry

Postby anthriel » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:34 pm

NiteHawk wrote:I'm not trying to be mean here but you guys hijacked this thread that was fairly positive (aka he was praising people for doing good) ....


I am glad you are still working on things and slowly trying to implement improvements to the game. I just want to point out that I was not trying to hijack daedroth's thread as I was discussing the same topic. He was saying that clan/guild rivalry under the current system is enjoyable when ppl show up to do it in an non-toxic way. I was trying to point out that:
(a) the current system means that it's almost never devoid of being toxic (and in fact always seems to lead to more toxicity) ... Cos we've seen through many iterations of it how toxic it gets and how this spills over even to staff dramas/newbies etc; and
(b) EO continues to lose players because of it.... So there are less and less people who are going to "show up" for daedroth to rival against (in fact his post almost sounds like a plea of "please don't quit the game, please keep playing as rivals to my clan because we need someone to be our fight with")

In any case my position is very similar to Lorelle's. I want to enjoy what I think has potential to be a very good game, but I feel it is currently (and has been since I got out of my newbie honeymoon) very unenjoyable due to a few key game mechanics (ie guild system) IMHO.

I'm tired of making new friends and watching them eventually fight toxically with my other friends resulting in some of them leaving the game.

I'm tired of playing a game where ppl (myself and others) are forced to act in a certain way (ie factionalism) in order to play it.

And I'm tired of patiently playing while investing in a uphill battle to try to advocate for change in the face of optimistic naivety (eg "new players will come magically and then we will have more guilds" when any observation of game trends shows the problem is not attracting new players, who come freely thanks to ROK goodwill, but retaining players cos the game's toxicity pisses off veterans into leaving) and censure (eg "anthriel, stop being a negative bastard again and flogging your old hobbyhorse" - which Is the underlying message I get from at least one particular staffer)

Life is short and full of other things. Like so many of my departed EO friends before me, I need to ask why I bother to invest time into something that brings me toxic feelings rather than enjoyment. Maybe one day I'll check in again after all the baby steps are completed. I've been off the field and on the benches/stands for awhile now, but maybe it's time for me to also leave the stadium.

Best wishes NH. You are a good developer and it's why I've stayed around in hope for so long as it is. Unfortunately I can't say the same about how I feel about the influence that some of your inner circle of advisors have on the game. And the latter has won out for now. Maybe I'll be back to check on the baby steps one day. But the first thing I'll do is /gtop and if it still looks like it does now, then I'll probably know the baby is still crawling. Peace all.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Clan Rivalry

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:47 pm

anthriel wrote:(eg "new players will come magically and then we will have more guilds"


I mean I also disagree with that statement too. I do want to adjust guilds, but again doing it as a stab wound will cause the current players who are playing to leave too if it's too abrupt. Unfortunately we need those players in order to keep the game afloat and to attract others, no one wants to play a completely dead game, but all I'm saying is implementation will go in baby steps in order to ease people into certain things and to make sure everyones happen while we progress.

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Kruell
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Kruell » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:39 pm

People who were Staff in RoK when Tanjir was removed saw what suddenly removing a part of the game from the players does. I used to have fights with other staff over rotating out OaDs or introducing something new. People get to enjoy something and they fear change. It is human nature. They fight against that change and if it is forced upon them in a bad way they leave the game. Sometimes hard choices must be made but in most cases its best to take small steps or take the time to convince the players of the need for a change.

I've currently got a list of things that I feel need to be addressed to help the game. Only one of them actually concerns guilds (indirectly). I trust Nighthawk to do what is best for his vision of the game. I also know that other staff members may have their own visions. Sometimes this causes conflicts and in the name of keeping the peace things are either ignored or not implimented as needed. Most of us are adults though and I choose to believe that we can handle changes, difficulties, and other issues that might come up in making this game better.
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daedroth
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby daedroth » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:38 am

Kruell wrote:Oh, and having a "New Player" Guild that all players start in. Players are automatically kicked out at level 9 or they can leave earlier for their own guild. I know players don't spend a lot of time at those levels but many people create new characters often and this would be a good way for communication of new players and people who normally wouldn't speak with each other.

I can actually see people keeping a level 8 atl just to recruit new players or help out.


I like this idea. I would extend the level cap though. As you said it is a short period of time getting to 9th, so there is the possibility a new player might not see someone (although as you stated, there is the possibility of people keeping alts at 8th to help/recruit newbies).
I would think 16th would be a good cut off point (or even 20th).
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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daedroth
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Re: Clan Rivalry

Postby daedroth » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:00 am

anthriel wrote:...
(a) the current system means that it's almost never devoid of being toxic (and in fact always seems to lead to more toxicity) ... Cos we've seen through many iterations of it how toxic it gets and how this spills over even to staff dramas/newbies etc; and
(b) EO continues to lose players because of it.... So there are less and less people who are going to "show up" for daedroth to rival against (in fact his post almost sounds like a plea of "please don't quit the game, please keep playing as rivals to my clan because we need someone to be our fight with")
...


Point B first:
Actually that was not what I was thinking at all.
I actually prefer to zombie level while watching a movie or reading a book. I help out with clan stuff, because I like to help my clan, but I would prefer just to do my own thing. Although, yeh, I have had fun with the inter clan competition.
The main reason I Posted was because I saw a toxic posting about Eld and thought I would try to say something positive in a vain effort to try and reduce the toxicity levels.
The only thing i will say to the person who posted the Eld thing is this: Don't take everything you read for being literal, there is a lot of shit talk in the Silh clan chat and most of it is not serious: we post lol@we trashed empire AND lol@we got trashed by empire, many times I have saw us laugh when we got trashed, and laugh when we trashed. So yeh, don't take what you read as serious, and if you have an issue contact staff first, posting just inflames things more. Also with Eld... well, love you Eld! but yeh there have been times when (as we Brits say) you really got on my tits, but I believe it's not intentional (or I would have quit clan for good ages ago) he is actually a good guy who will go out of his way to help people, he just get's riled up every so often.

Point A now!:
The toxicity... There have been times when I have got annoyed and posted some snide remark, because I have felt completely vindicated. However I have realised that this does not help anything, so I have stopped. We are all adults... it is mind boggling how childish we can act.
My suggestion is this, we self police each other. All this "he said", "they said", "he did", "they did" nonsense needs to stop.
When we see a clanny starting to go off on one, we TALK to them (leaders especially should do this), tell them to put it into clan chat and keep it there, and then try to calm them down. When we rant "out loud" in game or page our rants to our "enemy", or even post here on the boards, it just inflames things, it will escalate, so a mole hill becomes a mountain.
The leaders of the clans can even... PAGE each other, talk to each other, get things sorted out, you know like... communicate.
Leaders can even temporarily kick people out of the clan.

TLDR? Remember peeps, we are all adults, not kiddies. We do not need to retaliate, we can keep things in clan chat, we can rise above it. We can reduce the toxicity!
It just takes some effort.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Ohko
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Ohko » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:09 pm

Like what NiteHawk and Kruell already said, we can't just remove a huge portion of the current guild system without the current player base to be upset and ragequit. When the big wipe happened in RoK, I tried to come back and shortly left cause it felt like what kept me playing was taken from me. Similar effect would probably happen if say we're maxing the number of players to 20 for each guild. You're going to alienate a portion of the players cause they were removed from the guild.

I do see there are some toxicity in game between emp and silh, but I do see the good coming from the other side too. Example: Recently pk'ed someone in emp then I went afk'ed. Apparently, I got some hate pages sent to me that I didn't even see cause...afk. The next day he contacted me on discord and apologized. He was just having a bad day. I didn't even know what the apology was about until I went back to read the logs. :lol:
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Terron
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Terron » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:54 pm

i dont think you need to remove the guild systems in a fell swoop. i think if you changed it to an alliance system where houses can enemy or ally other houses it will correct itself over time.

i mean sure you will see 10 "silhouette" houses in an alliance, and 10 "empire" houses over here. but that wont last forever because not every member of both current guilds hates the other side in its entirety. sooner or later new friendships will be made and new "Secret" alliances formed yadda yadda. you all know how this works. the core of silh will remain as would empire's core probably. this is good. some secret alliance will branch out and develop its own core someday. asylum sympathizers would also branch out because it wouldnt be 3v15v12 at every turn. look now theres a magical 25 teams under 4 alliances.

keep the alliances hidden from other houses and who knows there could be dozens of mini teams noone even knows about til its too late. let houses make as many alliances as they want, doesnt matter if they end up non pvp for a day, someone will get mad about being bamboozled or backstabbed and enemy them.

just make it so you cant alliance or enemy a group until all online house members are in nopk zones

anyway later
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anthriel
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Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby anthriel » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:54 pm

Terron wrote:i dont think you need to remove the guild systems in a fell swoop. i think if you changed it to an alliance system where houses can enemy or ally other houses it will correct itself over time.

i mean sure you will see 10 "silhouette" houses in an alliance, and 10 "empire" houses over here. but that wont last forever because not every member of both current guilds hates the other side in its entirety. sooner or later new friendships will be made and new "Secret" alliances formed yadda yadda. you all know how this works. the core of silh will remain as would empire's core probably. this is good. some secret alliance will branch out and develop its own core someday. asylum sympathizers would also branch out because it wouldnt be 3v15v12 at every turn. look now theres a magical 25 teams under 4 alliances.

keep the alliances hidden from other houses and who knows there could be dozens of mini teams noone even knows about til its too late. let houses make as many alliances as they want, doesnt matter if they end up non pvp for a day, someone will get mad about being bamboozled or backstabbed and enemy them.

just make it so you cant alliance or enemy a group until all online house members are in nopk zones

anyway later


Basically I agree with this post from Terron.

So many of u others are jumping the bandwagon to "attack a straw man" that I'm somehow demanding that change happens in one sudden punch in the face. How the change eventually happens is not my ultimate concern yet. There will be time to discuss that later. My first concern is to show the evidence and convince ppl that change does need to happen (even if it is gradual). So often when I've presented this case before, ppl have denied that change is even needed. Newer players sometimes take the position of Rafael (ie that no change is needed - which I feel is optimistic because he hasn't seen as many repetitions of the same cycle as longer standing players have, especially those who feel the absence of ppl they once played alongside). Older players used to take this position also (largely motivated by fear of personal losses as Ohko pointed out) but Im hoping that given their own experiences of toxicity during their longer playtime that many will find it harder to deny nowadays that some sort of change is needed.

Basically my posts on this topic are trying help show the need for the first step (ie admission that there is a problem) even before we can begin to discuss how a solution would be implemented (obviously the most palatable way we can collectively think of)

But in the 1.5yrs I've been playing the problem is still denied because of naivety or personal interest. Despite the mounting evidence. And yet I feel we must collectively admit the problem exists and start moving on to looking at the solution (and preferably soon). Because I think the trends show that just as many players are leaving silently (or more) because of this issue over time than the ppl Ohko/NH etc fear may potentially leave if sudden changes were made. (Again I'm not saying make sudden changes, just pointing out that there is the hidden cost of not acting that everyone is missing by not caring about fixing this issue that underlies so much of the games toxicity)

Anyway if u think the clan system is "perfect as is" or "untouchable because changing what has been already implemented is too harsh for ppl to deal with" then I bid you happy gaming. But I am personally sick to the stomach of it already and I join the ranks of those voting with my feet (albeit im probably far more vocal about it than the average player of similar feeling). Peace all.


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