Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

User avatar
Kruell
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Kruell » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:29 pm

I honestly don't think the guild problem lies in the guilds themselves. Excerpt from my game notes:

I think the game is built to force players to join a guild. Players are unable to solo level in many areas due to monsters weaker than them still overwhelming their potions. Bosses and OaDs are designed as well for groups. A player can only solo the game until about level 14 when they begin to have issues depending on where they go to level. By level 17, players can find nearly nothing to do on their own so are forced into guilds to continue playing. Part of this is due to the structure of the game itself but most of it is due to the building philosophy of the areas.

skipping specifics on areas
One easy way to remedy this is to correct the errors where monsters are too strong for their supposed level and areas are altered to provide the correct challenge for solo players instead of forcing groups (i.e. guilds). Build areas, OaDs, and even Mini-bosses that can be tackled by solo players at their appropriate level. Make sure quest rewards are level appropriate as well as fit into the area. Even the implementation of creative events can allow a solo player to shine instead of being dependent upon a guild. All that it takes for this method is for a different approach to building as well as closer oversight of monster/area power as it applies to a single, average player.


If you look at it from my above standpoint, guilds themselves are not the main problem but are a natural reaction to other problems. I've worked on many games over the decades including RoK and many issues are caused by poor planning or comprehension of the underlying problems.

Who knows though. Maybe I'm wrong in my suppositions and observations. I've not gone to Staff yet to discuss my ideas since I've been waiting on the update before jumping back in 100%. Hopefully we can figure out what the underling problems are so we can fix them.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

anthriel
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby anthriel » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:24 am

Kruell wrote:I honestly don't think the guild problem lies in the guilds themselves. Excerpt from my game notes:

I think the game is built to force players to join a guild. Players are unable to solo level in many areas due to monsters weaker than them still overwhelming their potions. Bosses and OaDs are designed as well for groups. A player can only solo the game until about level 14 when they begin to have issues depending on where they go to level. By level 17, players can find nearly nothing to do on their own so are forced into guilds to continue playing. Part of this is due to the structure of the game itself but most of it is due to the building philosophy of the areas.

skipping specifics on areas
One easy way to remedy this is to correct the errors where monsters are too strong for their supposed level and areas are altered to provide the correct challenge for solo players instead of forcing groups (i.e. guilds). Build areas, OaDs, and even Mini-bosses that can be tackled by solo players at their appropriate level. Make sure quest rewards are level appropriate as well as fit into the area. Even the implementation of creative events can allow a solo player to shine instead of being dependent upon a guild. All that it takes for this method is for a different approach to building as well as closer oversight of monster/area power as it applies to a single, average player.


If you look at it from my above standpoint, guilds themselves are not the main problem but are a natural reaction to other problems. I've worked on many games over the decades including RoK and many issues are caused by poor planning or comprehension of the underlying problems.

Who knows though. Maybe I'm wrong in my suppositions and observations. I've not gone to Staff yet to discuss my ideas since I've been waiting on the update before jumping back in 100%. Hopefully we can figure out what the underling problems are so we can fix them.


Look, many of your observations are valid but I think secondary. The only thing making areas easier to solo would do is perhaps allow some newbies to resist joining a guild for longer. This may help to some degree but the impatient ones (I'm guessing most cos exp grind is usually not most ppls cup of tea) will still realise that exping will likely happen much faster in parties of 6 than solo and join a guild anyway. Even if you resist joining a guild until endgame, all the endgame content is guild-centric and the guild system has no checks and balances to the fact that "more numerous is always better" (as Terron pointed out). Hence the problems remain because it's the endgame toxicity that having a bi-factional guild system fosters which ultimately drives ppl away. I mean I've even heard of ppl who were friends in ROK becoming bitter enemies due to EO factionalism and tit-for-tat escalation of bastardly behaviour.... and it results generally in both sides largely not playing due to disenchantment with it all. Yes better designed areas can help. Yes better designed OADs (especially with regard to randomising timing) can help. But as NH and Terron have pointed out, if you balance the game for solos then things will be uber easy for parties of 6 or 10 or whatever etc... The key is not having the incentive to form bigger and bigger parties/numbers indefinitely... And since there's no counterbalance to "bigger numbers always equals better outcome" in the current guild system, the rescaling of areas isn't going to stop the toxicity stemming from incentivised factionalism imho. You say you have taken a break and now are currently guileless. Perhaps you should join a faction and muddy yourself again with the experience of the majority of players for a prolongued period of time and watch how ppl goad each other like children, friendships are broken and ppl stop playing before you diagnose that the guild system is not the main issue? In any case, thanks for engaging in the discussion and I hope your ideas will eventually help the game when you share them with staff. Peace.

User avatar
Eld
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:16 am

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Eld » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:55 am

Kruell wrote:I think the game is built to force players to join a guild. Players are unable to solo level in many areas due to monsters weaker than them still overwhelming their potions. Bosses and OaDs are designed as well for groups. A player can only solo the game until about level 14 when they begin to have issues depending on where they go to level. By level 17, players can find nearly nothing to do on their own so are forced into guilds to continue playing. Part of this is due to the structure of the game itself but most of it is due to the building philosophy of the areas.



Great observation there honestly. I tend to avoid levelling solo just because areas are so rough on single levellers, you use a lot of pots, and you miss out on the party exp boost on top of that.

I think this is definitely one of the factors that draws people towards a bigger guild where it's potentially easier to get a levelling group together.

Ideally we could find a solution for this without discouraging people partying together, because the cooperative aspects of this game are one of its best features.

Just as a very first thought, maybe the solution is to have selected monsters being able to scale in difficulty against parties, i.e. maybe the monster gets enraged/etc.
(but you also get the same increased exp as you do now for being part of a party).

In theory you'd be able to level solo on the monster without it being too hard, and then lvl on it in a party without it being too easy/too low exp.

I wouldnt suggest this for all monsters, just some of the main lvling ones and a couple of the lower OADs.

On a side note, I really look forward to the rest of your analysis.


To comment on the rest of a thread as a whole, a lot of the features that have been/are being introduced to the game are as an attempt to make it viable to choose smaller guilds over larger guilds.
We've looked at what benefits players get from being part of a larger guild and then tried to find ways to equalise that for smaller guilds.

As a result of this most of the newer OADs have been limited to smaller party sizes.

Global chat is being introduced that will hopefully provide a good social aspect outside of larger guilds (This is going to require a lot of babyproofing to make sure this is a positive feature, but i'm hopeful it can be done)

Most events held now seem to give no advantage to larger guilds, etc.

I think we're on the right track and new ideas are always considered.

Terron
Posts: 779
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Terron » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:21 am

most veterans barely exp any characters. this isnt even a factor after awhile. it would definitely be nice to exp solo with as much benefit as running around in group, however people stay in guilds for people to interact with and winning equipment from oads for character progression. most of us dont care about leveling a 10th unused character because we use the same 4 or 5 95% of the game

there is no feature you can add to make 4 people stand and fight vs 10. because 4 people cannot kill 7 of the enemies in 1 round to make it 3v3 by round 2. 4 people guild can do an oad but will never win a key.

events don't all cater to large guilds but all the moshes do. took us forever to drill it into event staffers heads that 2 teams has less bullshit than 3 4 or 5 teams. and still even in 2 randomly selected 5v5 people refuse to attack the opponent because it has 5 guildies on it. and somehow after still getting to "Stick it to the opposing guild" these fkers dont get banned from events for a month or banned in general. id rather get called a fag than having event team members not participate and win the same reward i get.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Rodeo
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:43 am

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby Rodeo » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:14 am

I recall a super guild who used to only have 4 or 5 members. We held our own once upon a time vs a much larger guild and we saw many other much larger guilds come and go over time. Yas the good old days. *shakes cane*

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby JadeFalcon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:45 am

Rodeo wrote:I recall a super guild who used to only have 4 or 5 members. We held our own once upon a time vs a much larger guild and we saw many other much larger guilds come and go over time. Yas the good old days. *shakes cane*



Was that clan Pornstars?
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

User avatar
daedroth
Posts: 1362
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:53 am

Re: Split: Clan Rivalry (Discussion about guilds)

Postby daedroth » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 am

JadeFalcon wrote:
Rodeo wrote:I recall a super guild who used to only have 4 or 5 members. We held our own once upon a time vs a much larger guild and we saw many other much larger guilds come and go over time. Yas the good old days. *shakes cane*



Was that clan Pornstars?


They never let me join that clan, something about my sheep fetish.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
I love sheep.


Return to “Core”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests