Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

What should we do with slayers? (Read the options in the post)

Poll ended at Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am

Number #1
4
13%
Number #2
6
19%
Number #3
8
25%
Number #4 (NEW)
5
16%
Number #5 (NEW)
6
19%
Number #6 (NEW)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32
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NiteHawk
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Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 am

We really want to try to keep slayers being slayers, but they do need some weaknesses/changes. We're going to be trying to give a second or two or so penalty if you are found out which I think will help with some double hides (though if you have low int, you'll probably struggle regardless.). It doesn't really put a slayer out of commission and some slayers may run for a couple seconds instead to prevent being targeted, but it would still lead to a slayer not being around for a very small period of time and/or being able to be attacked.

But there was some talks about what else could be done about them that doesn't exactly nerf the usefulness of a slayer but makes them more like glass cannons as well. They are better then barbarians for the most case due to hide, heavier armor, and less penalties to dodge. I could say that I see zerkers far more balanced due to their weaknesses and troublesome to get 'rage' moments, and slayers are more easily able to get rounds in of high damage.

Another thing is that people are so fast now that they can queue up two backstabs with movement making it very hard to avoid a double backstab and a easy death.

Being behind a guardian can also be seen as a potential problem, but it could also be seen as strategy, it forces the party for the most case to use guardians in smaller group fights in order not to be FF'd by a druid which shuts down slayers completely.

The thing I want mostly, is either a glass cannon, or an easier method to stop 'slayers' being so potent and there are many options, the issue is picking a choice everyone 'mostly' agrees on. When we say 'nerf' most people won't be happy. I feel though without weaknesses for slayers we can't move forward on more balancing, because they are simply above other classes I feel.

So I will bring up the options that were discussed, and we can see where we go from there and discuss it more ONCE we sort out the best ideas. I'm not really looking for any talk about this to start.

This doesn't mean we will add ALL of these, I'm just simply posting all the ideas that came:

1. Being found gives you a rehide penalty that cannot be removed via moving and can last 1-2 seconds. This would make double hiding an actual risk.
2. Removal of the old /hide system (moving back and forth). This would prevent queuing up attacks, and I'm not sure the old system is really needed as it really prevents reactions because you can literally queue the attacks (aka insta-deathing people). I know some people live by this, but now that the basic /hide has been in we can adjust that instead. It also helps the server too. You got to remember I'm trying to keep 'slayers' as they are but no other class can do the damage they can do with a double backstab thats almost instant. At least with the /hide delay there is some penalty for being so potent. This is honestly probably needed as well, because double burst damage is kinda insane.
3. Dropping slayers to cloth armor. ATM they wear medium armor, and it's probably too much without the weaknesses. I don't really want to make them LIKE barbarians and throw AGI modifiers on them, instead I'd like for them to take MORE damage. Obviously if this was done, we'd give people cloth armors as compensation, as we did for priests to light armor back then. I think this would be a good idea though, it means they'll take on more damage (about, and a shield will be more vital if they want to survive more than deal damage.
4. Having the delay after /hide of one second instead of after a backstab. This would prevent double bursting and give at least one second of hide. (aka /hide (1s delay) backstab))
5. Adjust their damage output from 4x to 3.5x. Aka remove 0.5x of damage when backstabbing. I will post values below in NEW OPTIONS.
6. Adjust it so they cannot burst damage twice in a round. Instead you backstab with a higher hit chance (bonus because of hiding) and then you can only regular attack that round. Aka ONE HIDE, ONE BS, two attacks. Read below in NEW OPTIONS

Depending on these new amulets we bring out (another post) we may adjust slayer damage ever so slightly so that their max = the same as it is now with the amulet. Though it won't be a very heavy change so you don't have to worry about your slayers taking any major losses. I just don't want slayers doing even 'more' damage then they are now. Though this might not come into plan as we might do something else completely.

----

NEW OPTIONS:

This is for the change their damage modifier to 3.5x instead of 4x (Around 4x with DW).

I will show the max damage outputs of a slayer and other classes to give input on why this was suggested. The STR is 22, so not even max, but it's mainly to prove the difference per class. All items are tested with a radiant item with 3% ember on divinity. So this isn't even the 'max' really, no hums, etc. When I mean 'common' I am basing it off others in the group. I.E. its super uncommon that a barbarian will rage three times in a row over backstabbing two times due to more factors then just rage itself.

Slayer 648 BS x2 = 1296 possible damage. More common.
Barbarian 275 385 385 385 = 1430 possible damage. Very uncommon. Often you'll get one rage max, and be lucky to hit two.
Knight 226x4 - 904 possible damage. More common. They do need love (P.S. gonna love on them).
Monk 196 196 392 196 196 - 1176 possible DPS. Common. though if your lucky you can do 392 196 196 392 196 for 1372 damage. more uncommon though. Geezus monks are pretty op actually for what they can do.
Slayer 4x instead of 4.5x BS x2 = 583x2 possible damage. 1166 possible damage. Theory when changing them down to this.

(I KNOW THAT THESE CAN BE UNCOMMON BUT I AM JUST COMPARING.)

This is why if we even change slayers, it would only be via -0.5 less modifier. So you'd get 4x with DW around. It's the burst damage and only requiring 2 hits that puts them on top. I think moving them down to 4x instead of 4.5x would be another solution we can look at. I know it's a scury change and it hurts your slayers, but I'm trying to look at all balance ideas. Again this is only an OPTION, don't freak out. I feel like it's not their damage, it's their quick burst damage in a row and you cannot react. Though lowering their burst damage a bit would help. I would say if we do this, we do 1# as well and the class should be rather OK that way.

I'm not saying slayers are in such a terrible spot too, but make sure you take a look at all the considerations here. It may be that the slayers don't need the nerf to damage and just need ways to stop double burst damage, etc. If they were to be nerfed damage wise I don't think they need much other nerfs too. Remember though this isn't even their max str or damage. Goes for any class here, but I am comparing with 22 STR to give 'differences' per.

--------------

Another proposition that was brought up, though I don't think it will be favorable, is slayers could only burst damage once a round which could include a 'easy chance to hit'. Sort of like having a 10% modifier to hitrate when backstabbing. This would mean your possible DPS would be 648 162 162 162 totaling 1134 damage with a double hide though doing this could have other problems when you have more than one slayer when your hitrate is better on backstabs, it was an idea so i'll post it up in any case. I don't think this is the best option but maybe people will prefer it. You'd probably be more inclined to always hit more on your BS and then have only 2 attacks remaining, not three. This would really not require any other heavier changes really either as it would solve itself via not being able to double burst.

--------------

I removed the /protect guardian change, it wasn't well liked and no point to keep it.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them?

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Adjusted and did a reset to the slayer poll. Read it again please. Removed one option, added two as it was brought up again.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm

I am frankly disappointed with this.

Slayers aren't OP 1vs1 - I struggle to win against zerkers or cavs 1vs1, and I have above average equipment.
Lets not get into my performance against enchanters/necros. Or priests.

Slayers are the only class that has one dedicated spell to neutralise them - FF.
Most slayers are Horcs/Saurians, i.e, enchanter fodder.
And you want to nerf them further??

Going through each option:
1. It isn't so bad, because its a bit useless - in a party fight, if you search out, you will find both ally and foes, so unless you are searching out for the last slayer in a battle, its kind of meh.
2. I think one of the problems we have now is that battles take too long? Mess this up and you will stop slayers of delivering that kill shot. Counterproductive, in my opinion.
3. Thanks, but we're already glass against most about everyone.
4. Same issue with 2) - we want battles to last less or more?
5. Same issue with 2) - we want battles to last less or more?
6. This would be murderous for lower levels, since today they have hope of dodging a BS, your plan would increase the odds of their death at first bs. Plus in battles, would make them last for longer.


I honestly think people are seeing this backwards -
One vs One, Slayers arent OP.
Party fights, slayers have weaknesses, but because they can cause lots of damage to deliver a KS, they are useful (and mind you, i've seen parties with more slayers get wiped by a smart party that brought a druid)
Now for events, everyone brings Slayers. Because they can hide, they allow people to be very tactical, like waiting for the "other" party to die. This has more to do with event rules than anything. Perhaps consider blocking slayers from most events.
But dont throw the baby with the bath water, please..
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Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:04 pm

i dunno why you suggest a barbarian is ever going to hit 4/4. or any single attack dps class for that matter. it almost never happens.

lets just say ht rate was 100% slayers roll vs armor 2x, all other classes roll vs armors and blocks 4x. this is only enhanced further by slayers having to roll vs agi 2x for a perfect round while other classes have to roll vs agi 4-5x aswell.

the rng pretty much limits more than 2 attacks happening in a row(even 3 is rare) i mean if im earning a 4/4 it outta do more damage.
slayers get an effective double hit rate and double armor pierce like this.


anyway no real point in argueing this dead horse. slayer damage needs lowered(id rather see 3.0 on slayer and 2.5 on brig) and they need a backstab penalty timer after hide
(1s penalty hide 1s penalty stab 1s penalty hide 1s penalty stab) this works and will allow searching to be timed

i voted 3 4 and 5 altho im not sure dropping them to lower armor makes much difference. they were already weak defensively(no shield)

4 has the most merit

5 is going to happen sooner or later regardless of this poll, its killing the game and will be realized.
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Kruell
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Kruell » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:31 pm

I'm going to disagree with Jadefalcon here to a point. I think Slayers are a bit overpowered. I don't think they are horribly overpowered but the simple fact that most people PK with slayers due to the ability to one round pretty much anyone they run across shows there is an imbalance in the class. I know it can be frustrating though for Slayers who miss their double backstabs but that is the only way most people can survive the slayer ambush. In all of my characters, I've only ever been successfully PKed by slayers. Neither Ninjas nor Zerkers have come close to taking me out in that first attack. To say that Slayers are not on the top of the food chain in PVP is being disingenuous.

As for the options:
1) In practical terms I don't see this as being much of a change.
2) Absolutely the most minimal change that I don't think would have much of an affect on gameplay.
3) This is the "glass cannon" option. Slayers retain their lethal abilities but become very vulnerable to retaliation should they fail to destroy their target immediately. While in events this will be a major change, in open world PKing it increases the chance of things going south should the slayer attack an opponent too strong or lucky to one round. This is my preferred option since it doesn't nerf their primary function.
4) I have no idea how this would work out in practicality. I believe it would be a matter of frustration though. Right away I see the main issue is people simply moving away one the slayer hides. In events, this will hurt the slayers more than I believe would be fair.
5) I would have argued for this two years ago. Now I'm not sure how well this will go over. It might be worth trying out though and would probably be my second choice.
6) This would doom anyone under 700 to 750 hp to instant death. With the mentality of most of the players, this means roaming slayers trying to kill everyone between Turenyara to Linwood just to feel the rush of the instant kill.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:48 pm

I get that slayers are the bane of breaking damage right now but you gotta remember we want to lower priests heals a bit, at the moment its harder when slayers can deal what they can now. Most of the time the deciding factor for breaking a priest is simply bring a couple slayers to get lucky and break him. I think their heals are high obviously. etc. Just to say anyways.

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Kruell
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Kruell » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:57 pm

NiteHawk wrote:I get that slayers are the bane of breaking damage right now but you gotta remember we want to lower priests heals a bit, at the moment its harder when slayers can deal what they can now. Most of the time the deciding factor for breaking a priest is simply bring a couple slayers to get lucky and break him. I think their heals are high obviously. etc. Just to say anyways.

I believe you just hit on the core problem. It is impossible to suggest changes to a class in a vacuum. The overall picture must be taken into account when making changes. All classes and skills have different effects on the game. Trying to strike a balance in one area may require making changes to many different classes or abilities. Unfortunately, it is very hard to get people to see beyond the issue currently before them (in this case slayers) and see it as anything other than a nurf. When changes are discussed we need to keep in mind other things that are changing or need to be changed so nobody feels like they are having their favorite pet put down. In fact, I forgot that heals were being taken down so I'm going to change my vote to my second option. With lowered heals, Slayers absolutely do not need that massive damage.
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Lateralus
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Lateralus » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:59 pm

Option 3 is my choice I like that they are dynamic and scary however they should have downside if they really want more armor then wear a shield that drops their damage which works out nice. I think they prob need to take more damage from caster side as well if they are going to have weaker armor tho too.

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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm

i mean all this is fine an dandy, but first you have to decide are you balacing this for 1v1 or group fights or even a set number(even match)?

if 1v1 then slayer can be ignored.

if4v4 or 6v6 slayers are powerhouses but usually fall to a good core of support on the other team (decent priest minstrel with mr and a guard to block the weak link) will usually break a couple slayers.

in the current zombiethons, slayer is op as hell. why? because theres 8 of em(or more)

yes slayers need to die to mages better, but the ones that need to die are mostly horc and higher mr ones. so they dont need an mr penalty because that just ruins potential players from diversifying into exotic builds. slayer needs to just receive more damage from spells like the opposite of negation. horc on the other end has enough hps to survive 2-3 rounds from a chanter w/o his excessive potion timer, so its obvious that horcs potion timer needs to go away.

@nitehawk also another idea is to just give the class slayer a potion timer penalty so they cant drink and rehide as often w/o being searched repeatedly and stabbed

but you still see that the core of this problem is the amount of people in these fights. if every key was 4v4 slayer isnt going to be 70% of the people in there. its becoming an arms race for 2 guilds to sway the tides by having superior numbers and thats all. ofc 8 people are going to bring 6 slayers if they are fighting 13, theres no other way to try and win.
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:32 pm

thought of another idea

2 hidden characters per square at a time. if u try to hide it could say theres no hiding spots left. however just like option 1 it isnt really fair to anyone whos outnumbered as a team with 8 people can just run 2 hidden full time to prevent slayers from even being a factor.

option 1 makes training solo about impossible since mobs spot like crazy. and parties with characters to spare can just spam search and keep slayers revealed the whole time. which is pretty much like a stun lock imo
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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