Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

What should we do with slayers? (Read the options in the post)

Poll ended at Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am

Number #1
4
13%
Number #2
6
19%
Number #3
8
25%
Number #4 (NEW)
5
16%
Number #5 (NEW)
6
19%
Number #6 (NEW)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32
User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:04 am

NiteHawk wrote:I If the 'main' problem is with groups and dying due to no reaction time on two backstabs, then that is probably the focus.


Then just put the hide delay? o.O
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

anthriel
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby anthriel » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:36 am

NiteHawk wrote: If the 'main' problem is with groups and dying due to no reaction time on two backstabs, then that is probably the focus.


i dont think the problem with people dying in groups is that a single assassin is landing 2 backstabs in quick succession with no reaction time.... that rarely ever happens (whether in solo combat or group combat)... the problems in groups is you have something like 6 slayers targeting 1 player with coordinated attacks and all they need is 2/6 hits on the first backstab (even before any delay timer between second backstabs comes into play)... it obviously gets worse with more assassins involved... which is why i think they need to be made into liabilities in groupfight situations (eg /hide nerfs for crowded squares or even random chance that backstab hits an unintended target including party allies etc). I mean you can add the delay timer but the 6 assassins in groupfight still have 2/6 chance to 1round the char instantaneously before any delay/healing/potting/searching/etc even comes into play... so really i feel that the delay timer more affects the solo assassin relying on his own 2 backstabs to try an pk a solo person rather than actually fixing the overpoweredness that slayers cause in groupfight situations. Peace.

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:52 am

o.O
I have never seen (outside of a mosh) a party of six slayers - But that is a separate issue, that slayers can hide and be very tactical.
In real battles, I think at most we brought 3 slayers - then you are just inviting animorph to come and FF everyone...

I mean, nor 8 nor 88 here...
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

User avatar
NiteHawk
Site Admin
Posts: 3120
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:06 am

anthriel wrote:i dont think the problem with people dying in groups is that a single assassin is landing 2 backstabs in quick succession with no reaction time.... that rarely ever happens (whether in solo combat or group combat)... the problems in groups is you have something like 6 slayers targeting 1 player with coordinated attacks and all they need is 2/6 hits on the first backstab (even before any delay timer between second backstabs comes into play)... it obviously gets worse with more assassins involved... which is why i think they need to be made into liabilities in groupfight situations (eg /hide nerfs for crowded squares or even random chance that backstab hits an unintended target including party allies etc). I mean you can add the delay timer but the 6 assassins in groupfight still have 2/6 chance to 1round the char instantaneously before any delay/healing/potting/searching/etc even comes into play... so really i feel that the delay timer more affects the solo assassin relying on his own 2 backstabs to try an pk a solo person rather than actually fixing the overpoweredness that slayers cause in groupfight situations. Peace.


Actually, it's a fairly more common thing than you think to break up fights. It's literally like 13-16% for a double backstab to occur on a HO. That's not rarely in my books. It's simple numbers. I know of several people who can prove that this has occurred many times on HO, Saurians, etc. I don't think i've see 6 slayers either, but I'm sure it's happened before. To me that just screams 'get a drood and wall protect it'. I really doubt the issue is people bringing 6 slayers on one side of the team though. I'm not saying it's a BAD thing and slayers should be able to do it to a degree, I'm just saying that a single or two people can do it, and it's been done many times.

Yeah jade that's partially what 'should happen' if you bring multiple slayers too. For the most case from what I've seen there is 1 or 2 slayers and they're hidden behind a guardian though. That's why one of the original ideas was to prevent sap/etc from being /protect blocked, but then that brought up a whole load of issues that wasn't worth it and it didn't make so much sense anyways. I don't think people probably bring more then 3 slayers though typically. Not that they 'all get protected' but it's a common thing to wall a heavy hitter if there is only one.

Two slayers, both have 13%-16% chance per round to double backstab, yet alone time their own backstabs together. However, timing your backstabs is a lot harder then you think (An additional 0.5-1.5s) without putting some sort of delay per unless you have a crap ton of slayers who just out DPS healing and/or are on on par sometimes with their hits. Moving in quick succession is not and it's far quicker than anyones reaction times generally.

Again I'm not against the /hide working less if multiple people are around, I'm just really pointing out its not because theres 6 slayers on one side of the fence. I'm also going to point out you making /hides on a per person on square penalty as you guys say, is still not going to resolve multiple slayers in a square anyways as much as mine. Obviously mine, you wait and time it with multiple people after /hiding. However, what do you think people will do with your option as well? Obviously wait until everyones hidden. Even if its 50% chance, there is seldom problem for a group of slayers to lose one or two attacks and still be ready to stab someone though. Both options make it more of a hassle, but both options don't really stop it. Both options however will boost the chance of searching as both options will make a group have to wait a second to get into position, though. At best the /hide working less if multiple people around will prevent little over half of them from getting a second attack if they are at maximum players there to hit 50%, which is good as well.

So the /hide working less if multiple people around gives some potential delay because of coordination issues (/hide not working and having to say READY when all slayers are ready) giving some chance to search out the slayers. It will lessen the amount of attacks a slayer can do as most slayers have a lower then 50% chance to backstab twice with maximum players are in the room. (It does not prevent coordinating attacks though.) When there are less players or if the room starts to grow smaller in number due to deaths, they will pretty much work as they do now (could be a problem obviously again). This does not address the reason why people think slayers are op small groups but does address it more in larger groups as you will most likely fumble one hide. This option will work a little better for novices because it doesn't require additional work on the attackers end.

The /hide DELAY attack method (either no delay for hiding or split up the delay) works generally in small groups and larger groups, but you'd have to search them out for this to work. It won't resolve multiple slayers issue as the above won't, and does the same thing in which gives the players some time to /search them out during coordination or if you have someone paying attention which might not always be the case thus this idea not working. There is the risk of shutting down a slayer if you're fast enough to search however, but this would be a 0.5s or 1s second chance, which is more like 0.35-0.85 with delays etc. It probably won't change 1vs1 as you want to attack rather then search out, but it would work in small to large combat. There is obviously the risk of it breaking flow, (I.E. more timers), but you could simply just move the timer from after attacking to before attacking and it would generally be the same. This would generally require more work on the attackers end and you can lose a attack or two from searching. It would be a 'it is worth to search out' at this point, and if slayers are not coordinating and just attacking, its very hard to /search out all of them.

Both have flaws and strengths anyways.


I won't be doing any accidental backstabs though, that's not a really good idea and I think it'll piss off many people. I get the idea but the rage would be real. :P That by far is probably a lot worse then a /hide delay or /hide penalty depending on amount of players. Both which at least stop slayers to a point.

Terron
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:56 am

ive definitely seen more than 6 slayers, on both sides. sometimes at the same time...

slayers arent powerful in a 1v1....event maybe. they are ridiculous in non event. you barely break 300 damage per round on any class ingame except slayer. so if a slayer has potions they get, literally, 10+ rounds to try and win .

dbl hide is easily broken by a caster searching, sometimes way too easy.
theres no delay between attacks and hide to make search a defensive tactic

i think you all are finally noticing exactly what i said the first time i logged in to this game, you cant have a game with 1 class having rounding power. none of these proposals will change the dynamic, every extra person will always be a slayer. you want people to use more classes make something round a slayer for once on occasion. or take the rounding power away. its pretty simple here. 4 5 and 6 are the best proposals up there but i dont think its enough. its simple damage and hit rate math.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

User avatar
Kruell
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Kruell » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:19 pm

I remember several years back sending a proposal to one of my Senators and he wrote me back saying "Yes, it would fix part of the problem but we don't want to do anything until we can fix everything at once." This kind of mentality made me question the sanity in Washington. Do we wait to fix a water leak until we can replace all the pipes? Now take what he said though and apply it here. No one proposal for working on Slayers is universaly liked nor are any one of the proposals likely to fix the game dynamic with a class that can one round over half the people in game. Our votes are a good guide but Nitehawk is going to have to decide which options and tweaks are best for the moment. After he makes changes, we will have to wait and see as to how effective they are. In the meantime, we can work on other issues and talk about other classes. This isn't a case where we have to have a perfect fix before anything is done. I'm actually for making more than one change, all of them fairly small individually, and see where we are after that.

PS: I think trying to balance any class by using events as an example is a bad idea. Class dynamics in events always rotate and change over time. The main reason is the mentality of the player base in choosing to gamble about their opponents.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

User avatar
Lateralus
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:21 pm

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Lateralus » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:57 pm

Terron wrote:ive definitely seen more than 6 slayers, on both sides. sometimes at the same time...

slayers arent powerful in a 1v1....event maybe. they are ridiculous in non event. you barely break 300 damage per round on any class ingame except slayer. so if a slayer has potions they get, literally, 10+ rounds to try and win .

dbl hide is easily broken by a caster searching, sometimes way too easy.
theres no delay between attacks and hide to make search a defensive tactic

i think you all are finally noticing exactly what i said the first time i logged in to this game, you cant have a game with 1 class having rounding power. none of these proposals will change the dynamic, every extra person will always be a slayer. you want people to use more classes make something round a slayer for once on occasion. or take the rounding power away. its pretty simple here. 4 5 and 6 are the best proposals up there but i dont think its enough. its simple damage and hit rate math.


I think by lowering their armor to a minimum and giving casters a damage bonus on them you are shifting towards a few classes that can round them or get close.

Off topic: It would be nice yes if casters had a 2x hit for 2x Stam or something. Think a dragon ball z type move gotta spend 1 second paralyzed no dodge no movement and caster sends out a 2.5x attack that costs 2 stam (charge,blast). A bit off topic but yea.

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:42 pm

Terron wrote:iyou want people to use more classes make something round a slayer for once on occasion.


+1 for this

Quite frankly, some uber nerf to slayers and ill honestly think on another game. Its just boring any other way.
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

Terron
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:11 pm

@lateralus i mean what does lowering their armor actually achieve? a cavalier hits 1 or 2 times per round for 148 instead of 145? i mean im sure theyll die to 6 damage right?

pretty sure this is a waste of staff and players time

proposal 3 is total shit

its just there as something slayer users can pick to not actually lose any power.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Rodeo
Posts: 298
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:43 am

Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Rodeo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:28 am

It's crazy seein people say they are gonna quit if slayers are changed that's rather childish. This should have probably been done in testing but it's am made it this far. Right now we got 2 classes that can /hide and get multiplies to damage imo we need one and brig looks pretty damn well balanced. I am all for the deletion of slayer and let brigs take the place of slayers. If you want a dps brig use a high str if you want more stealth choose high int mediocre str. If you want a godly brig choose 10 str gnome. High str brigs can still coordinate and round on occasion. And multiples in groups ate lethal also. Also been hearing from some hardcore slayer playet players thay brigs have a lower hit rate which I find opposite on my elf brig which has killed many slayers.


Return to “Archive Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

cron