Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

What should we do with slayers? (Read the options in the post)

Poll ended at Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am

Number #1
4
13%
Number #2
6
19%
Number #3
8
25%
Number #4 (NEW)
5
16%
Number #5 (NEW)
6
19%
Number #6 (NEW)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32
anthriel
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby anthriel » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:22 am

NiteHawk wrote:I still think the old system should be removed though, that's just me. It would really help with fixing alot of these shitty issues and I wouldn't have to really feel like I had to nerf damage so much if we could test that. I'm not sure if you guys are just clinging on the ROK style, but it is honestly crap and brings problems when you can just reset your timers by moving.

I look at it two ways at the moment with #4:
Remove the old system, making rehide 0.5s instead of 1s, and then making the other 0.5s in between hide and attack.

/hide
0.5s timer
a NAME
0.5s timer
/hide
0.5s timer
a NAME

would be a round. Pretty straight forward. Less hide timer means probably no one would use the old system anyways.
----

OR

Remove the old system, remove the rehide delay and move it to a 1s wait between attacking. Add a /search out find delay of 1s. So

/hide
1.0s timer
a NAME
/hide
1.0s timer
a NAME

Would be a round. And if found out, you can't hide for a second.


---

The idea about making /hide harder the more players are around is not a bad idea, but if we were to do that it wouldn't be a 100% ever. It would be more like 25% max I'd say. Completely gimping a class like that even is its the big bad assassins over numbers in a game is a bit eh. It's a possibility though too


How would you remove the old system entirely though? I get u can remove the up/down allowances on certain KTP squares to stop a slayer leaving and coming back in on say a Vila trap square ... But if it's in the open field like with dragon or something then won't old school slayers still move N/S to reset their backstab?

I mean in your first eg if you have a choice of staying in a room unhidden and letting ppl pound u for 0.5sec or leaving to avoid damage for 0.5sec and introducing potential confusion about how soon you may be reentering the room - I think most would still choose the latter anyway... And In the 2nd eg it seems you can rehide immediately after attacking which probably means slayers will spend even more time hidden and forcing opponents time to waste attacks /searching (cos they can then immediately rehide after attacking or even if they are found)...

These type of restrictions make for weird game flow methinks ... Take it too far n slayers can't land 2bstabs before ppl pot/heal etc anymore and their class-identity is gone. Too little and you don't achieve any difference. The increasing %fail of /hide (due to circumstances like being crowded rooms, due to INT, due to parties etc) sounds to me like a better/smoother way of introducing RNG of failure into what is now almost 100% certainty. It does largely reflect lore also (eg even though Terron doesn't like nerfing skills, we can't expect any slayer to always be able to find a hiding place at will within a split seconds notice etc... Even spells have fizzles). Shrugs

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 am

I think there are two points:
1. One is what NH plans to do, which is to prevent a sort of "technical abuse". I am fine with that, although Anthriel does make the point this needs to be finely tuned. But i guess that is something we can all work on
2. The other point is Slayers being unbalanced. I think we agree that the issue is more group fights than 1v1. For that I think we could have
2.1. Hide % penalty in crowded rooms (NH does not like it, I and Ant do, not sure about anyone else. Again, something
to be tinkered with.
2.2. My own view that actually instead of changing anything on slayers, work on other classes to make them more fun
to play. I think one of the things that makes slayers so popular isnt their raw power, its that, as piddy mentioned,
they are the most fun class to play. You get cool skills for tactical gameplay, or just to run around (i love spying
on people). No other class has that, and that in my opinion, is the true issue.
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Styx
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Styx » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:52 am

I opt for change the armor to balance out the armor choices, we could give cleric back heavy armor since cleric was always getting the berg. O.o now that it's slayers notice how big the discussion has become. Personally a cleric or monk could use a cloak and just a dust the ac gains.

Leave slayer dammage alone. It's row meta. Otherwise to many will cry and prob leave. But being the meta then adjust all other classes to upgrade their attack dammage

Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:14 am

the problem is you cant just boost all classes damage. think about it, if a priest has to start burning 2 heals per ninja or cav, the slayer basically gets to try and round every single time instead of priest only having to really worry about the slayers stabs. basically all that happens is slayers killshot people even easier. once a clerics timing is off its likely the slayers only have to hit once instead of twice. its basically like turning dark elf slayer into a horc.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:19 am

anthriel wrote:How would you remove the old system entirely though? I get u can remove the up/down allowances on certain KTP squares to stop a slayer leaving and coming back in on say a Vila trap square ... But if it's in the open field like with dragon or something then won't old school slayers still move N/S to reset their backstab?

I mean in your first eg if you have a choice of staying in a room unhidden and letting ppl pound u for 0.5sec or leaving to avoid damage for 0.5sec and introducing potential confusion about how soon you may be reentering the room - I think most would still choose the latter anyway... And In the 2nd eg it seems you can rehide immediately after attacking which probably means slayers will spend even more time hidden and forcing opponents time to waste attacks /searching (cos they can then immediately rehide after attacking or even if they are found)...

These type of restrictions make for weird game flow methinks ... Take it too far n slayers can't land 2bstabs before ppl pot/heal etc anymore and their class-identity is gone. Too little and you don't achieve any difference. The increasing %fail of /hide (due to circumstances like being crowded rooms, due to INT, due to parties etc) sounds to me like a better/smoother way of introducing RNG of failure into what is now almost 100% certainty. It does largely reflect lore also (eg even though Terron doesn't like nerfing skills, we can't expect any slayer to always be able to find a hiding place at will within a split seconds notice etc... Even spells have fizzles). Shrugs


I'm not sure what you really mean? You remove the old system by not making your hide timer remove. It's up to you if you wanna still go back and forth but it won't help you none when the /hide timer is reduced. You're thinking like I couldn't make it not prevent a backstab for X amount of time though. AKA reset based on time, not movement.

AKA /hide timer becomes 0.5s, which is the same as going north and south. This means going north and south would be the same. However there would be some merit in going north and south still in some regards.

The other option to resolve this would instead put it into /hide DELAY attack. This means that you remove any merits of going back and forth.

Yeah, you waste attacks searching, that's is the point! In small combat, 1vs1, 2vs2, you probably won't waste so much attacks. In bigger fights, you might have one guy who has high int handle it and try to prevent slayers. I see it no different then making the /hide mechanic not work with 16 people as Jade said, the only difference is you force players to use mechanics like /search which would be done in larger groups to stop slayers. The more players around, the higher chance a slayer has to be found as more people coming out of attacks at random times will warrant them /searching, etc. And again, in 2vs2/1vs1 lets say, you wouldn't search out a player for the most case due to not wanting to waste attacks then, and probably not searching at the correct times as they wouldn't be hidden.

Doing it this way, I could even see preventing searching out your own mates. AKA a /search only finds non party members.

Jades hide method is still fine and we can go that route NP and not do the change to /hide timers or even leave it the same and do the system here or Jades system. It doesn't change the fact that I think the old movement system for hide is dumb and benefits people with faster pcs and connections. It's a relic from ROK.

Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:34 am

yeah i like the delay when hitting players. makes no sense you hide and are instantaneously within stabbing distance of your target.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

anthriel
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby anthriel » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 pm

NiteHawk wrote:The other option to resolve this would instead put it into /hide DELAY attack..... I see it no different then making the /hide mechanic not work with 16 people as Jade said, the only difference is you force players to use mechanics like /search which would be done in larger groups to stop slayers.


I see a world of difference between these 2 options actually. Below is why.

Option1: "hide delay attack"
"Hide DELAY attack" means that ppl will always (100% of the time) have a chance to pot/heal/search/run/FF in between 2 backstabs... its already hard to land 2 backstabs in a row and it rarely happens in 1v1... so what you are doing by implementing this is screwing solo slayers from being able to pk anyone who isnt already half dead.

Option 2: reducing scale of /hide success% based on certain factors
Whereas a %fail for hide in a more crowded room (or in increasing stacking of %fail to hide if other circumstances are met eg being in party or hiding behind guard etc) means that there is still a chance to double backstab (based on your luck with RNG) and that chance is higher in solo situations and much much lower in groupfights.

Eg system could go like this:
%success of /hide = 100% - [20% - (player INT x 1%)] - 1% for each person in room - 10% if protected by paladin

Therefore a 10int horc slayer hiding in room with 16ppl (eg 8v8 battle) and sitting behind paladin would have a %success on /hide of: 100%-(20%-10%)-16%-10% = 64% ... that means he still has a 64% chance to kill via double bstab in groupfight rather than almost zero if it was "hide delay attack" (cos he'd get FFed, priest would heal victim, he'd get searched or victim would pot etc)... and most ppl will be mashing F1/F2 so they wont be waiting to see if /hide succeeds or not anyway (otherwise they would be self-imposing a delay) so it is effective and natural. This is in effect a nerf (cos currently the Horc has 100% success% on /hide in groupfight)... but at least it is not a nerf absolutely all the time due to RNG (but a delay is a nerf 100% of the time)

The same 10int Horc slayer in a solo situation hunting a solo player would have a /hide success% of 100%-10%-2%-0% = 88% (still a nerf but much more respectable for solo situations)
But a 20int DE slayer in a solo situation hunting a solo player would have a /hide success% of 100%-0%-2%-0% = 98% (much more respectable again, but requires choosing a race with less STR in any case)

etc etc

____________________________

Basically choosing something like Option 2 over Option 1 above means the following:
1. less intelligent slayers (who are generally maxing strength) will suffer abit of disadvantage hiding compared to more intelligent slayers (somewhat solves your horc = OP problem... and it fits with lore that stupider slayers would have more problems hiding)
2. slayers retain their ability to 1round slay in single combat (via possibility of quick double bstab, which would be largely removed in a "hide delay attack" situation)
3. slayers become largely less useful in crowded groupfight situations (largely stopping the scaling 10v10+ problem where multiple slayers are focus-firing backstabs on a single target, which is enough to kill anything)
4. RNG plays a bigger part, instead of a straight nerf 100% of the time by introducing a delay. A very lucky slayer could still make a difference in a group situation (ie it doesnt necessarily exclude them entirely, which may piss off ppl more).

These reasons are why i suggest option 2 as far more interesting, palatable and lore-fitting than the clunky imposition of "hide delay attack". Peace


Edit - The above is just an example of values, not the exact ones i would suggest etc. In fact i realised that my math is wrong cos to successfully land a double backstab it would need to be like 64% x 64% (or whatever) which is way too low of a chance so the values need to be tweaked anyway. Basically was just drawing out the differences in concept and showing why i prefer something like option2.

Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:56 pm

there should be an option of leaving the damage the same and lowering backstab agility by atleast 5
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:53 pm

anthriel wrote:Option1: "hide delay attack"
"Hide DELAY attack" means that ppl will always (100% of the time) have a chance to pot/heal/search/run/FF in between 2 backstabs... its already hard to land 2 backstabs in a row and it rarely happens in 1v1... so what you are doing by implementing this is screwing solo slayers from being able to pk anyone who isnt already half dead.


All the option does if it's the 'first' option of the two I talked about would be adding a 0.5s delay. The other 0.5s for rehiding is the same delay as moving back and forth, for a 'FAST' player. 0.5s isn't alot, and to me, giving people the chance to counter with such a low amount of seconds is fine. To me this doesn't screw solo at all, unless you consider the extra 0.5s seconds between the attacks what would kill a solo player. It probably wouldn't, and potting once most of the time won't save you from dual backstabs, though in most 'surprise attack' cases, you aren't prepared and you won't react anyways. Most peoples complaints are to do with their damage, while I think that's a slight problem, I think the bigger issue is to do with high strikes that you can't react too.

anthriel wrote:%success of /hide = 100% - [20% - (player INT x 1%)] - 1% for each person in room - 10% if protected by paladin
Therefore a 10int horc slayer hiding in room with 16ppl (eg 8v8 battle) and sitting behind paladin would have a %success on /hide of: 100%-(20%-10%)-16%-10% = 64% ... that means he still has a 64% chance to kill via double bstab in groupfight rather than almost zero if it was "hide delay attack" (cos he'd get FFed, priest would heal victim, he'd get searched or victim would pot etc)... and most ppl will be mashing F1/F2 so they wont be waiting to see if /hide succeeds or not anyway (otherwise they would be self-imposing a delay) so it is effective and natural. This is in effect a nerf (cos currently the Horc has 100% success% on /hide in groupfight)... but at least it is not a nerf absolutely all the time due to RNG (but a delay is a nerf 100% of the time)

The same 10int Horc slayer in a solo situation hunting a solo player would have a /hide success% of 100%-10%-2%-0% = 88% (still a nerf but much more respectable for solo situations)
But a 20int DE slayer in a solo situation hunting a solo player would have a /hide success% of 100%-0%-2%-0% = 98% (much more respectable again, but requires choosing a race with less STR in any case)


If we do it this way it's not a bad solution either. It doesn't solve the main issues with slayers though, which is to do with being able to queue two backstabs and kill someone. I feel that it would have to be in conjunction with something else to either make them more like glass cannons like armor reduction/etc.

anthriel wrote:1. less intelligent slayers (who are generally maxing strength) will suffer abit of disadvantage hiding compared to more intelligent slayers (somewhat solves your horc = OP problem... and it fits with lore that stupider slayers would have more problems hiding)

I think option 1 is also viable for this reason. Low int is low hide. Easier to find. But both options work here in your case too.

anthriel wrote:2. slayers retain their ability to 1round slay in single combat (via possibility of quick double bstab, which would be largely removed in a "hide delay attack" situation)

Again, the whole issue with slayers to me isn't their damage so much as their ability to snipe players with no reaction due to high strikes though, at least giving some sort of reaction time, even though it's still low.

The idea for option 2 and putting it with INT will work better then static though, for sure.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:54 pm

Terron wrote:there should be an option of leaving the damage the same and lowering backstab agility by atleast 5


I don't think I want to include that option :P I feel like that kind of craps on slayers in everything for no reason.


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