Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 am
We really want to try to keep slayers being slayers, but they do need some weaknesses/changes. We're going to be trying to give a second or two or so penalty if you are found out which I think will help with some double hides (though if you have low int, you'll probably struggle regardless.). It doesn't really put a slayer out of commission and some slayers may run for a couple seconds instead to prevent being targeted, but it would still lead to a slayer not being around for a very small period of time and/or being able to be attacked.
But there was some talks about what else could be done about them that doesn't exactly nerf the usefulness of a slayer but makes them more like glass cannons as well. They are better then barbarians for the most case due to hide, heavier armor, and less penalties to dodge. I could say that I see zerkers far more balanced due to their weaknesses and troublesome to get 'rage' moments, and slayers are more easily able to get rounds in of high damage.
Another thing is that people are so fast now that they can queue up two backstabs with movement making it very hard to avoid a double backstab and a easy death.
Being behind a guardian can also be seen as a potential problem, but it could also be seen as strategy, it forces the party for the most case to use guardians in smaller group fights in order not to be FF'd by a druid which shuts down slayers completely.
The thing I want mostly, is either a glass cannon, or an easier method to stop 'slayers' being so potent and there are many options, the issue is picking a choice everyone 'mostly' agrees on. When we say 'nerf' most people won't be happy. I feel though without weaknesses for slayers we can't move forward on more balancing, because they are simply above other classes I feel.
So I will bring up the options that were discussed, and we can see where we go from there and discuss it more ONCE we sort out the best ideas. I'm not really looking for any talk about this to start.
This doesn't mean we will add ALL of these, I'm just simply posting all the ideas that came:
1. Being found gives you a rehide penalty that cannot be removed via moving and can last 1-2 seconds. This would make double hiding an actual risk.
2. Removal of the old /hide system (moving back and forth). This would prevent queuing up attacks, and I'm not sure the old system is really needed as it really prevents reactions because you can literally queue the attacks (aka insta-deathing people). I know some people live by this, but now that the basic /hide has been in we can adjust that instead. It also helps the server too. You got to remember I'm trying to keep 'slayers' as they are but no other class can do the damage they can do with a double backstab thats almost instant. At least with the /hide delay there is some penalty for being so potent. This is honestly probably needed as well, because double burst damage is kinda insane.
3. Dropping slayers to cloth armor. ATM they wear medium armor, and it's probably too much without the weaknesses. I don't really want to make them LIKE barbarians and throw AGI modifiers on them, instead I'd like for them to take MORE damage. Obviously if this was done, we'd give people cloth armors as compensation, as we did for priests to light armor back then. I think this would be a good idea though, it means they'll take on more damage (about, and a shield will be more vital if they want to survive more than deal damage.
4. Having the delay after /hide of one second instead of after a backstab. This would prevent double bursting and give at least one second of hide. (aka /hide (1s delay) backstab))
5. Adjust their damage output from 4x to 3.5x. Aka remove 0.5x of damage when backstabbing. I will post values below in NEW OPTIONS.
6. Adjust it so they cannot burst damage twice in a round. Instead you backstab with a higher hit chance (bonus because of hiding) and then you can only regular attack that round. Aka ONE HIDE, ONE BS, two attacks. Read below in NEW OPTIONS
Depending on these new amulets we bring out (another post) we may adjust slayer damage ever so slightly so that their max = the same as it is now with the amulet. Though it won't be a very heavy change so you don't have to worry about your slayers taking any major losses. I just don't want slayers doing even 'more' damage then they are now. Though this might not come into plan as we might do something else completely.
----
NEW OPTIONS:
This is for the change their damage modifier to 3.5x instead of 4x (Around 4x with DW).
I will show the max damage outputs of a slayer and other classes to give input on why this was suggested. The STR is 22, so not even max, but it's mainly to prove the difference per class. All items are tested with a radiant item with 3% ember on divinity. So this isn't even the 'max' really, no hums, etc. When I mean 'common' I am basing it off others in the group. I.E. its super uncommon that a barbarian will rage three times in a row over backstabbing two times due to more factors then just rage itself.
Slayer 648 BS x2 = 1296 possible damage. More common.
Barbarian 275 385 385 385 = 1430 possible damage. Very uncommon. Often you'll get one rage max, and be lucky to hit two.
Knight 226x4 - 904 possible damage. More common. They do need love (P.S. gonna love on them).
Monk 196 196 392 196 196 - 1176 possible DPS. Common. though if your lucky you can do 392 196 196 392 196 for 1372 damage. more uncommon though. Geezus monks are pretty op actually for what they can do.
Slayer 4x instead of 4.5x BS x2 = 583x2 possible damage. 1166 possible damage. Theory when changing them down to this.
(I KNOW THAT THESE CAN BE UNCOMMON BUT I AM JUST COMPARING.)
This is why if we even change slayers, it would only be via -0.5 less modifier. So you'd get 4x with DW around. It's the burst damage and only requiring 2 hits that puts them on top. I think moving them down to 4x instead of 4.5x would be another solution we can look at. I know it's a scury change and it hurts your slayers, but I'm trying to look at all balance ideas. Again this is only an OPTION, don't freak out. I feel like it's not their damage, it's their quick burst damage in a row and you cannot react. Though lowering their burst damage a bit would help. I would say if we do this, we do 1# as well and the class should be rather OK that way.
I'm not saying slayers are in such a terrible spot too, but make sure you take a look at all the considerations here. It may be that the slayers don't need the nerf to damage and just need ways to stop double burst damage, etc. If they were to be nerfed damage wise I don't think they need much other nerfs too. Remember though this isn't even their max str or damage. Goes for any class here, but I am comparing with 22 STR to give 'differences' per.
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Another proposition that was brought up, though I don't think it will be favorable, is slayers could only burst damage once a round which could include a 'easy chance to hit'. Sort of like having a 10% modifier to hitrate when backstabbing. This would mean your possible DPS would be 648 162 162 162 totaling 1134 damage with a double hide though doing this could have other problems when you have more than one slayer when your hitrate is better on backstabs, it was an idea so i'll post it up in any case. I don't think this is the best option but maybe people will prefer it. You'd probably be more inclined to always hit more on your BS and then have only 2 attacks remaining, not three. This would really not require any other heavier changes really either as it would solve itself via not being able to double burst.
--------------
I removed the /protect guardian change, it wasn't well liked and no point to keep it.
But there was some talks about what else could be done about them that doesn't exactly nerf the usefulness of a slayer but makes them more like glass cannons as well. They are better then barbarians for the most case due to hide, heavier armor, and less penalties to dodge. I could say that I see zerkers far more balanced due to their weaknesses and troublesome to get 'rage' moments, and slayers are more easily able to get rounds in of high damage.
Another thing is that people are so fast now that they can queue up two backstabs with movement making it very hard to avoid a double backstab and a easy death.
Being behind a guardian can also be seen as a potential problem, but it could also be seen as strategy, it forces the party for the most case to use guardians in smaller group fights in order not to be FF'd by a druid which shuts down slayers completely.
The thing I want mostly, is either a glass cannon, or an easier method to stop 'slayers' being so potent and there are many options, the issue is picking a choice everyone 'mostly' agrees on. When we say 'nerf' most people won't be happy. I feel though without weaknesses for slayers we can't move forward on more balancing, because they are simply above other classes I feel.
So I will bring up the options that were discussed, and we can see where we go from there and discuss it more ONCE we sort out the best ideas. I'm not really looking for any talk about this to start.
This doesn't mean we will add ALL of these, I'm just simply posting all the ideas that came:
1. Being found gives you a rehide penalty that cannot be removed via moving and can last 1-2 seconds. This would make double hiding an actual risk.
2. Removal of the old /hide system (moving back and forth). This would prevent queuing up attacks, and I'm not sure the old system is really needed as it really prevents reactions because you can literally queue the attacks (aka insta-deathing people). I know some people live by this, but now that the basic /hide has been in we can adjust that instead. It also helps the server too. You got to remember I'm trying to keep 'slayers' as they are but no other class can do the damage they can do with a double backstab thats almost instant. At least with the /hide delay there is some penalty for being so potent. This is honestly probably needed as well, because double burst damage is kinda insane.
3. Dropping slayers to cloth armor. ATM they wear medium armor, and it's probably too much without the weaknesses. I don't really want to make them LIKE barbarians and throw AGI modifiers on them, instead I'd like for them to take MORE damage. Obviously if this was done, we'd give people cloth armors as compensation, as we did for priests to light armor back then. I think this would be a good idea though, it means they'll take on more damage (about, and a shield will be more vital if they want to survive more than deal damage.
4. Having the delay after /hide of one second instead of after a backstab. This would prevent double bursting and give at least one second of hide. (aka /hide (1s delay) backstab))
5. Adjust their damage output from 4x to 3.5x. Aka remove 0.5x of damage when backstabbing. I will post values below in NEW OPTIONS.
6. Adjust it so they cannot burst damage twice in a round. Instead you backstab with a higher hit chance (bonus because of hiding) and then you can only regular attack that round. Aka ONE HIDE, ONE BS, two attacks. Read below in NEW OPTIONS
Depending on these new amulets we bring out (another post) we may adjust slayer damage ever so slightly so that their max = the same as it is now with the amulet. Though it won't be a very heavy change so you don't have to worry about your slayers taking any major losses. I just don't want slayers doing even 'more' damage then they are now. Though this might not come into plan as we might do something else completely.
----
NEW OPTIONS:
This is for the change their damage modifier to 3.5x instead of 4x (Around 4x with DW).
I will show the max damage outputs of a slayer and other classes to give input on why this was suggested. The STR is 22, so not even max, but it's mainly to prove the difference per class. All items are tested with a radiant item with 3% ember on divinity. So this isn't even the 'max' really, no hums, etc. When I mean 'common' I am basing it off others in the group. I.E. its super uncommon that a barbarian will rage three times in a row over backstabbing two times due to more factors then just rage itself.
Slayer 648 BS x2 = 1296 possible damage. More common.
Barbarian 275 385 385 385 = 1430 possible damage. Very uncommon. Often you'll get one rage max, and be lucky to hit two.
Knight 226x4 - 904 possible damage. More common. They do need love (P.S. gonna love on them).
Monk 196 196 392 196 196 - 1176 possible DPS. Common. though if your lucky you can do 392 196 196 392 196 for 1372 damage. more uncommon though. Geezus monks are pretty op actually for what they can do.
Slayer 4x instead of 4.5x BS x2 = 583x2 possible damage. 1166 possible damage. Theory when changing them down to this.
(I KNOW THAT THESE CAN BE UNCOMMON BUT I AM JUST COMPARING.)
This is why if we even change slayers, it would only be via -0.5 less modifier. So you'd get 4x with DW around. It's the burst damage and only requiring 2 hits that puts them on top. I think moving them down to 4x instead of 4.5x would be another solution we can look at. I know it's a scury change and it hurts your slayers, but I'm trying to look at all balance ideas. Again this is only an OPTION, don't freak out. I feel like it's not their damage, it's their quick burst damage in a row and you cannot react. Though lowering their burst damage a bit would help. I would say if we do this, we do 1# as well and the class should be rather OK that way.
I'm not saying slayers are in such a terrible spot too, but make sure you take a look at all the considerations here. It may be that the slayers don't need the nerf to damage and just need ways to stop double burst damage, etc. If they were to be nerfed damage wise I don't think they need much other nerfs too. Remember though this isn't even their max str or damage. Goes for any class here, but I am comparing with 22 STR to give 'differences' per.
--------------
Another proposition that was brought up, though I don't think it will be favorable, is slayers could only burst damage once a round which could include a 'easy chance to hit'. Sort of like having a 10% modifier to hitrate when backstabbing. This would mean your possible DPS would be 648 162 162 162 totaling 1134 damage with a double hide though doing this could have other problems when you have more than one slayer when your hitrate is better on backstabs, it was an idea so i'll post it up in any case. I don't think this is the best option but maybe people will prefer it. You'd probably be more inclined to always hit more on your BS and then have only 2 attacks remaining, not three. This would really not require any other heavier changes really either as it would solve itself via not being able to double burst.
--------------
I removed the /protect guardian change, it wasn't well liked and no point to keep it.