Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

What should we do with slayers? (Read the options in the post)

Poll ended at Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am

Number #1
4
13%
Number #2
6
19%
Number #3
8
25%
Number #4 (NEW)
5
16%
Number #5 (NEW)
6
19%
Number #6 (NEW)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32
Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:09 pm

well yeah i posted that after getting hit 15x in a row by a horc slayer. but i shouldnt have been on a healer, if i was on a dps i could have stopped caring after 2 instead.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Lateralus
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Lateralus » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:50 pm

I like the idea of failing to hide the more people in the room and maybe im the outlier but I really like the slayer and brigs chance to burst damage fast. it sets them apart and gives some variety. they are a fun class to play as we can see they are a lot of peoples faves. I like that there is a bit of skill involved in being a quick slayer if you wanna round someone you gotta be quick on the keyboard. So i would like to see them keep the damage. if you cant hide until .5 or 1 second after it removes a bit of that skill. There isnt a ton of skill in this game so i guess thats kinda of why I am in favor of it.

That said their defense is a bit too high when they have that much power. I would love to see them and brigs sent down to cloth armor (helps with balancing and makes sense rp wise cloak and dagger etc..). Id also like to see them take an additional 10% damage more magic damage when hit. Become a true glass cannon. Yes I know they can hide behind guards but what if when they hide it cancels protect? I mean how is a paladin protecting them when they hide or at the very least if they move out of the room.

Brings me to another point what is the guards penalty for protecting. I know on rok if you were protecting you could not dodge (it made sense but was a bit too harsh). I thought there was some sort of penalty here however it does not seem like very much if at all so just wanted to check on that. i assume its like -2agi and -2wis or something?

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:37 pm

Lateralus wrote:I like the idea of failing to hide the more people in the room and maybe im the outlier but I really like the slayer and brigs chance to burst damage fast. it sets them apart and gives some variety. they are a fun class to play as we can see they are a lot of peoples faves. I like that there is a bit of skill involved in being a quick slayer if you wanna round someone you gotta be quick on the keyboard. So i would like to see them keep the damage. if you cant hide until .5 or 1 second after it removes a bit of that skill. There isnt a ton of skill in this game so i guess thats kinda of why I am in favor of it.

That said their defense is a bit too high when they have that much power. I would love to see them and brigs sent down to cloth armor (helps with balancing and makes sense rp wise cloak and dagger etc..). Id also like to see them take an additional 10% damage more magic damage when hit. Become a true glass cannon. Yes I know they can hide behind guards but what if when they hide it cancels protect? I mean how is a paladin protecting them when they hide or at the very least if they move out of the room.

Brings me to another point what is the guards penalty for protecting. I know on rok if you were protecting you could not dodge (it made sense but was a bit too harsh). I thought there was some sort of penalty here however it does not seem like very much if at all so just wanted to check on that. i assume its like -2agi and -2wis or something?


There is no penalty on guardians because no one used them when there was atm. They are literally free from penalties atm and I think that if penalties were added again you'd kill the class even more. This doesn't really change slayers though. I don't know, I really think you guys understand the severity of being able to kill someone with 0 reaction time. It's not really skill. Anyone can do it.

The other claim to make other classes damage more is fine, and I agree more classes need more interesting things, but just upping damage to all classes is a bad way of solving this. Either you got to prevent slayers from insta killing, you got to lower their damage, or something else that is probably gonna hut them in 1vs1 too in some cases (as you say for example, making them take 10% more spell damage as a class). The idea of failing to hide is fine, but again, it doesn't prevent insta-killing at any fight and it's not a skill, its literally using queues to attack fast, and no it is not really solvable through server means. Server will take data, you can't prevent that or make that part change otherwise you'll bork the game. In the end I'll probably do what the community wants but if I don't make a decision then it's probably going to be based off the poll.

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Kruell
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Kruell » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:18 pm

NiteHawk wrote:It doesn't change the fact that I think the old movement system for hide is dumb and benefits people with faster pcs and connections. It's a relic from ROK.

100% truth!

It seems from reading all this that attitudes are changing and some people are thinking "but what if...." So are we getting to the following thoughts yet?

1) Accept that overall Slayer damage is too high for one round.
No matter how I look at the math, Slayers are able to overwhelm pretty much anyone else in game way too often. While it's true that in groups this is more common, ask yourself why people go out to solo PK with a slayer and not a zerker or ninja.... Giving /hide a chance to fail might be the best solution. Most slayers will want to realocate their stats after but that's fine. Maybe make hide failures work like brigands failing to rob, exhaust them but that may be too much. Even in the most crowded of rooms though I'd not go below a 50% success rate. Imagine being the poor drake with a 12 int who can't even participate in events because crowds>him. Sure we can raise the damage from all other classes but that would be the same as raising HP for everyone. It's a bandaid on a broken arm, and not a true fix to anything.

2) Mechanics are not important to the action of the skill.
Removing the movement requirement to reset the timer just seems a good idea. Builders have to consider Slayers when they build OaDs because that class needs room to move to be at peak. Just implimenting a very fast .5 delay between hide and hit shouldn't be an issue and actually makes sense. Just because you are used to going N+S+/hide+backstab doesn't mean that you can't do it another way. If you are hung up on .5 seconds then I suggest you consider how long does it take you make two movements. What will end up happening most of the time will be Hide (they don't know you are there), HIT, you hide the same time they realize they were hit, .5 seconds later you HIT again. This all happens before the average person even registers they have to use a potion, heal, or flee.
Complete Disclosure: I wouldn't even notice a .5 delay because satelite minimal lag is 600ms but most often +1000ms so take my opinion for what it's worth.

3) A reduction in armor won't make them useless.
If restricting Slayers to Light armor makes them too squishy for you, then unequip that second dagger and wear a shield. This is actually strategically a good idea. I can actually imagine slayers running around with an extra dagger in their inventory just in case they need to do a little more damage and are willing to sacrifice defense. The trade off here will require some getting used to but it does open up some interesting options and provokes some though to how you equip/play your character.
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Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:30 pm

id rather classes get skills. brig doesnt need high burst dps if they have other shit to do like stealing potions, items, and keys. but they should be able to do backstabs far less efficiently than slayers.

slayers shouldnt be beastmodeing endless super rounds on people. it should be tactical sneak in hide sneak up to target and stab them while unaware and if they fail try to evade closecombat to retry a flank/stealthy strike. this should be finesse and intellectually based, as str matters very little for slicing a throat or stabbing a crucial nerve/artery. and thats the problem. slayers should have extremely high hit rate, but i dont see them walking up to a knight and poking them twice while eating 6 swords to the face and they win. how do they win?

see the real thing is noone cares if they beast monsters all day cuz the slayer training is kinda boring and its slower and more tedious with movement and keys, but the combat aspect of this game needs drawn out, where every stam has impact and not just with back to back 700 damage stabs. i think multple assassins should have to time attacks very well for it to work and they shouldnt ever get to backstab twice in 1 turn thats just shit.

what we have in option 1 is a group with ten can endlessly search for slayers in a group of 4 and small group has no chance this is only furthered or equally worse with hide penalties with more people.

option 2: all the best training and non pvp uses for the class are gone

option 3: the class that died about the 3rd fastest dies about the third fastest still(nothing)

option 4: the poise element is somewhat there, and slayers must sneak up to target and stab(although they should stam out on any successful bs)

option 5: lower slayer damage to the point that they still remain as the only class that cab beat potions in 1v1s and break priests (next to nothing changes)

option 6: this should happen


basically

3 helps if the game needs that balance but i dont see it changing anything they die fast already, just not as fast as they kill.

4 works to break the super pvp and leave the pve elments #2 wants to remove.

5 lowers the damage minimally and does next to nothing a couple str or a chanter buff cant fix

and 6 takes away the broken mechanics of dbl backstabs entirely and makes slayers have to coordinate to succeed.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm

In terms of damage without additional factors they aren’t the best. Zerkers can do way more and ninjas are also better. When you factor in that they only need two hits per round rather then 4 or 5 then it’s a differ story as it’s a rare case on most. I.e average for slayers to hit 2 times at 40% is about 16% chance. For zerkers to compare damage they need all their rages to hit which is 6% . Hitting 4 tines is about 2.5%. So that’s why their average damage is considered way higher because of how much more rapid it can be to inflict said damage.

I still don’t think the hide penalty resolves this in small combat but if that’s what people want that’s probably how it’s going to go. If it’s the hide to hit delay I don’t think we need the hide penalty too but that’s just me.

I do ageee about slayers using shields for more defense though. They lose 15% chance currently which will be 17% with the new changes. They should have to opt at least if they want to tank some.

P.s the attack delay wouldn’t have to be in pve only pvp.

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Lateralus
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Lateralus » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:59 pm

I guess what I’m getting at is a slayer should be getting absolutely destroyed if the don’t manage to kill the target first round and guardians don’t make them god mode by protecting. That said my first choice would be to keep as is and really lower defense so they can be combated.

Otherwise if that’s not going to fly I guess I’d like to still see them have a defense weakness but also have the hide delay allowing a search out penalty and keep damage where it is.

Sidenote: guardians with no protect penalty really messes with balancing defense systems in my mind. With protect on you nullify everyone’s defense. Somewhat off topic but I don’t think this would be much of an issue if it weren’t for guards and we could lower slayers defense.

Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:44 pm

guardians can be debuffed and raped by higher agi slayers tho, because they dont heal for 1100. i doubt theyd get used w/o protect being left alone.

im leary of nerfing skills on this game. theres so few of them. i mean if everyone told you they wanted balanced combat and you deleted all races and classes except human cavaliers, you got your balance but your game is boring.

leave skills alone, make other skills. gunna be hard to keep players if its completely f1 mashing and 0 constructive tactics ingame.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Styx
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Styx » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:08 pm

Lower armor and leave dammage alone

Change dagger dammage so it's a little less backstab but change duel wield so if they want the big hit they can, so bigger percent on duel wield with less ac, where as a single dagger with shield has a lot better chance of survivability

Edit add skills to other players, and change the name faerie fire so it can be easily typed in combat

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:56 am

I don't think faeriefire is difficult to type out nor is it the issue on why slayers aren't getting FF'ed. I don't mind changing the name to FF though. On top o' that you aren't really addressing the issues of slayers.

I also think the 'Leave skills alone because there is not many' is not a warrant to keep an overpowered thing in game, be it a hide to backstab delay, or multiple people in the room makes hide work less, or something else completely different. It's apparent that unless you lower the damage a good deal, the alpha strikes won't change anyways, even if you lower it to 4x with two daggers. It'll help but it not a full blown solution too. If the 'main' problem is with groups and dying due to no reaction time on two backstabs, then that is probably the focus.

Be as it may, people might claim they are balanced in PVP because of 1vs1, but 1vs1 with a 30-50% dodge rate is mostly random luck. However, because assassins only require two of these in most cases (and sometimes an extra love tap) it ends up being that they will most likely have the better end of most PVP. Aka my above statement, where getitng two hits in a row is 16%, and getting 4 hits in a row is 2.5%.


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