Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

What should we do with slayers? (Read the options in the post)

Poll ended at Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:04 am

Number #1
4
13%
Number #2
6
19%
Number #3
8
25%
Number #4 (NEW)
5
16%
Number #5 (NEW)
6
19%
Number #6 (NEW)
3
9%
 
Total votes: 32
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:19 am

NiteHawk wrote:
JadeFalcon wrote:I am comfortable with the armor as is - I think if we get suffixes for armor, then we can perhaps get class specific stuff? Dunno, sorry im thread jacking.


Class specific stuff like that though?

The point to lower armor would be so they take 5% more damage or so really. If you just lower their armor and then give them class armor it kind of defeats the purpose of a nerf though


I was thinking more along the lines of a ring armor for assassins with 0 ac, but that gives a haste bonus, for example. Hard tradeoffs that arent necessarily a nerf.
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anthriel
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby anthriel » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:24 am

NiteHawk wrote:Making them have a penalty when being in a party doesn't work in most PVP fights. The problem would probably be at key areas anyways, it's a moot point as they can just disband when they arrive and rejoin when done. Not a real difficult task to do. You'd lose some watch on them in /party but it's fairly easy for slayers to run off to heal themselves.


I'm talking conceptually (ie suggesting the general concept that the route for slayer development is for them to be a solo killer but a groupfight liability). If the concept is helpful then there are many ways to make the concept work practically. Eg the most hardcore option is to stop them from being able to join a party at all. Other options could be things like coding it such that in a crowded room of more than X chars there is a random % chance that their bstab lands on a random target (including someone in their own party if they are in one, or anyone in the room if they are not - which would also fit with lore as its pretty hard to backstab ppl in a crowded situation) ... etc etc - im sure we can get creative n think outside the box if ppl agree that the concept of making them NOT be groupfight assets is a better route than straight out nerf. Its getting ppl to agree to a concept of change that is the hard part.

Shrugs.... I still think giving a %fail chance to /hide (for which there is a base amount dependent on Int and which then increases in party situations) is better than all the weird delay timers to backstabbing/hiding or restrictions to one bs a round etc that basically stop them from 1round killing in solo situations as well (cos they should retain this).

Anyhoo do what you will... imho this class-specific stuff isnt even the main prob anyway (cos any fixes to a class are a short term band-aid and powershift to another class). The prob of dealing with 10v10+ balance dynamics ultimately lies in reducing the incentive to form such large groups/factions. Class balancing can then be made more accurate once that is settled. Peace.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:30 am

anthriel wrote:....


Actually, something like a /hide nerf if there are alot of people in a room would make sense to me.
So starting at 6 people total in a room, you get 10% fail chance on heal, increasing 10% per added person.

So, 6 people in a room - 0%
7 - 10% odds
..
12 - 60% fail odds
16 and above - 100% fail (cannot hide)
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:35 am

JadeFalcon wrote:
anthriel wrote:....


Actually, something like a /hide nerf if there are alot of people in a room would make sense to me.
So starting at 6 people total in a room, you get 10% fail chance on heal, increasing 10% per added person.

So, 6 people in a room - 0%
7 - 10% odds
..
12 - 60% fail odds
16 and above - 100% fail (cannot hide)


That is a possibility too, though I'd probably not make 100% fail, if that was an idea for em.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby JadeFalcon » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 am

NiteHawk wrote:
That is a possibility too, though I'd probably not make 100% fail, if that was an idea for em.


Now go make me my 0AC Haste Ring Armor, please.
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Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 am

im dead against nerfing skills on games. its already boring enough that the game is pushed to f1 bashing and rng. this might be why slayer is a heavy favorite - they get to use 2 or 4 buttons. (exciting!)

keep hide ff protect backstab taunt roar etc all need to be very useful. you have hard counters to slayers already, just search with a mage. but the issue is here that theres no pause/break between hide and stab to even search. which is why i like #4 if your targeting a player. i dont think it needs the 1s penalty if you hit monsters.

i mean wed likely have the same issue if 10v10s had 7 chanters on 1 side aswell, its just that 7 chanters wouldnt beat 7 slayers and 7 chanters cant kill the foundation of support most groups have.

if option 4 only has a 1s wait period for backstabs on players and not monsters then i think option 4 is the best route to strategically combat slayers in party fights. now it might no help mass wars with 20 people but it still helps more than the other ones. and it keeps them the same pve on hard mini bosses and vila traps etc as they can move and rehide still.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:40 pm

I still think the old system should be removed though, that's just me. It would really help with fixing alot of these shitty issues and I wouldn't have to really feel like I had to nerf damage so much if we could test that. I'm not sure if you guys are just clinging on the ROK style, but it is honestly crap and brings problems when you can just reset your timers by moving.

I look at it two ways at the moment with #4:
Remove the old system, making rehide 0.5s instead of 1s, and then making the other 0.5s in between hide and attack.

/hide
0.5s timer
a NAME
0.5s timer
/hide
0.5s timer
a NAME

would be a round. Pretty straight forward. Less hide timer means probably no one would use the old system anyways.
----

OR

Remove the old system, remove the rehide delay and move it to a 1s wait between attacking. Add a /search out find delay of 1s. So

/hide
1.0s timer
a NAME
/hide
1.0s timer
a NAME

Would be a round. And if found out, you can't hide for a second.


---

The idea about making /hide harder the more players are around is not a bad idea, but if we were to do that it wouldn't be a 100% ever. It would be more like 25% max I'd say. Completely gimping a class like that even is its the big bad assassins over numbers in a game is a bit eh. It's a possibility though too

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:15 pm

Either example though would work.

Remember it takes about 0.4-0.5s to do a N/S. thats why the current search timer is 1s.

What you'd generally do (now) is put that into the rehide delay, (0.5s instead of 1s) and then move the rest into actually hiding, it will at least give a quick reaction time for the priest instead of being insta death. This way you can still snipe in small combat when they don't realize you are there for the quick snipe, because their reaction time will be slow, but you kind of solve the larger groups and they can prepare more.

The second option just gives a little more time in any case to catching them through a search instead. 1s goes by pretty quick though. It does allow them to rehide faster but they'd risk getting caught. But generally both options allow the larger combat groups to stop slayers if they are paying attention but still let slayers get the surprise on unsuspecting people.

Terron
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby Terron » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:16 pm

just hurts them solo training imo. because i literally only like to fight monsters i can move and rehide instantly on. otherwise pot use is so high i cba. (this is a problem in general not just from the slayer p.o.v.)

either way 2 or 4 break the instant .04 second dbl stabs so in a way those help more than armor nerfing and damage nerfing. but they still need damage lowered a bit. i rounded a half orc with a gnome ffs(buffs and div ofc but still i only had shivs with no embers)


as far as armor i always thought it should be

cloth: ninja chanter deathmage
light: priest brigand slayer
medium: stalker druid minstrel
heavy: cavalier guardian zerker
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayers - What to do with them? (REVOTE)

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:32 pm

Terron wrote:just hurts them solo training imo. because i literally only like to fight monsters i can move and rehide instantly on. otherwise pot use is so high i cba. (this is a problem in general not just from the slayer p.o.v.)

either way 2 or 4 break the instant .04 second dbl stabs so in a way those help more than armor nerfing and damage nerfing. but they still need damage lowered a bit. i rounded a half orc with a gnome ffs(buffs and div ofc but still i only had shivs with no embers)


as far as armor i always thought it should be

cloth: ninja chanter deathmage
light: priest brigand slayer
medium: stalker druid minstrel
heavy: cavalier guardian zerker


It doesn't need to be added in PVE, only if you attack a player's monster or a player. Depends though how people feel about it.

I kind of agree for armor changes, not exactly that, but I understand what you're doing there and it is a good idea in the long run.


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