Build Transparency & Change Logging

anthriel
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Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby anthriel » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:48 pm

Is it possible for Build to commit to posting a development log for any build-related changes made to OADs, new monsters added etc (like Nitehawk does so well whenever he makes game-wide changes)? I think it would be best if Build were more transparent about what is being added/changed in the game and the timing in which those changes occur so that players have more understanding on what is and isn't happening.

Now i'm not posting this here to complain, create drama, point fingers etc. I'm merely pointing out that Build initiating more transparency and accountability would largely prevent toxicity and feelings of unfairness from infecting portions the player-base. For example i'm beginning to hear discouraged murmurings about things like:
    - a secret OAD area added with the update that wasnt announced like the other 3 new areas were
    - changes made to OAD difficulty (to make them easier to complete) occuring just after the embargo on builders participating in new OADs ended
    - the new secret OAD area being almost immediately run and completed on the first attempt by a guild that has many builders inside once the embargo had ended and the changes were made to enable it to be more easily completed

Now perhaps none of these murmurings are true. And my point is not to accuse that they are or are not true. People are always going to talk in any game about perceived unfairness. But all of this is discouraging stuff for the player-base to even hear about and all of this could have been easily avoided if Build had been transparently posting development logs like Nitehawk does.

Its unfortunate enough that we have a system of super-guild factionalism vying for game domination and that several builders have largely vested interests in running these super-guilds. I think that while such a system exists, more transparency and accountability is helpful for the morale of the overall player-base. The last thing i'd want to see is a repeat of the discouragement surrounding the illegal chat-bot fiasco. That kind of thing is discouraging enough to want to make me walk away, despite Nitehawk being such a awesome and fair developer.

Anyway - my suggestion is that Build begins to log all significant development changes as soon as they are implemented. Now i know there should be certain scope for 'surprises' so that players can discover interesting/exciting stuff for themselves but i dont think that a simple non-descriptive line like "added new secret OAD area somewhere in Ciruin" or "reduced overall difficulty of OAD X, Y and Z for these reasons" is asking too much. Happy for NH or Lat to push back if they think it is. Peace all

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Lateralus
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby Lateralus » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 am

Just to be clear I didn’t announce most of my work because I wanted it to be a pleasant surprise for those who were willing to explore. I hinted many times that there would be things to find such as other oads, new quest lines and random hourly bosses. For the most part it went well because of this no other build really knew about it and none of it was cracked until a few days to weeks after. The sad thing is some of the community believes there is some sort of conspiracy against them for some reason and a pleasant surprise for most turned into extreme paranoia that once again staff was out to get them and cheat them or their winnings. I guess this is why we can’t have nice things? Although most of the community said it was their fav part of the update to explore and find these hidden activities it seems there are a few that can’t handle it.


That said with the change log stuff I’ve always been fully open and pushing for full changelogs. When changes are made there are notes that go directly to hawk So they are typed up ready to go if hawk wants them shared.

I do think the element of surprise and enjoyment of discovering new things is a lot of fun I’m sorry some ruin that for the rest. Hopefully we can find a happy medium.

As for the change to this most recent oad I bcast the changes (which is normally not done but I wanted it to be fair for everyone so I took an extra step to ensure nothing could be considered hidden or just for 1 guild). If hawk allows I will gladly post build change logs in a running forum post from here on out.

Ohh and I also want to point out one more thing about the builder embargo you speak of...

There are 4 semi active builders in that evil guild you speak of. One hasn’t logged on to a norm or staff since about a week before the update. The second had been on for about 2-4 hours since the update. The 3rd has been on as of about 3 days ago and me the sneakiest of them all has been on mostly fixing issues and running events for the players. We all have something in common as well. We still have not ran any of the oads. I understand you just want some transparency which I agree with but I know how the rumor wildfires go over there and I just wanna let you know that it’s not like the second this embargo hit we all jumped into stuff the sad fact is most of us are burnt out from Creating these areas for you guy to enjoy and still fixing things for you guys and don’t have time to enjoy these new areas.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:21 am

I will say that the builder who ran it wouldn't know what does what. We don't allow people who know the OAD to run it under two conditions of that it must be completed first and a certain time must pass. Build server is fully logged and FTP is logged too. If there was any wiffs of attempts abuse they wouldn't be on staff.

I'm okay with posting a cheeky little 'There is a new' etc though to start.. But that's it. OADs are supposed to be pretty secret. I can agree with notifying the public better (I.E a gcast instead of a bcast) or possibly making a forum post with any actual errors so everyone has knowledge/is well informed on the error resolves the OAD/area in question.

Things like this do need to be tested better though as well, to avoid the issue in the first place :> Maybe even a test on live before fully releasing it as sometimes issues can occur (I.E. Old files, missing files, etc.) Because the said builder has to upload the required files to a temp area that is not build nor live as no one has direct access to the live server. Call it a 'precheck' on my end. Regardless there is still room for error for any builder but I do encourage a person if they think there is a problem to ask. I or the builder who completed it won't give any hints but we are glad to check to make sure everything is in order and give you a simple thumbs up if it's OK.


anthriel wrote:Its unfortunate enough that we have a system of super-guild factionalism vying for game domination and that several builders have largely vested interests in running these super-guilds. I think that while such a system exists, more transparency and accountability is helpful for the morale of the overall player-base. The last thing i'd want to see is a repeat of the discouragement surrounding the illegal chat-bot fiasco. That kind of thing is discouraging enough to want to make me walk away, despite Nitehawk being such a awesome and fair developer.


I assume when you mean super guilds you're speaking about Sil and Empire (I'm not exactly beating around the bush for those ones, (it's obvious.) Gotta say that it for people who are fair and wanted to join build/prove they can build would be happily added long as they're fair people. Build has been open apply because we need more people obviously, scripters included. I don't see it being a guild issue though. IMO anyone can cheat, big or small, and if it occurs, they'd be removed. Most people in either guild though don't tolerate cheating themselves and actually shun anyone who would cheat so it so generally if it did occur it would be a isolated amount of people, (normally one or two people) hence what I mean about it not being a guild issue and more of a player issue.


Lateralus wrote:As for the change to this most recent oad I bcast the changes (which is normally not done but I wanted it to be fair for everyone so I took an extra step to ensure nothing could be considered hidden or just for 1 guild). If hawk allows I will gladly post build change logs in a running forum post from here on out.


Yeah I'm fine with changelogs. As I said above OADs don't need to be revealed, just make a cheeky message about 'The world is dark around the upper regions, what could it be?' in an OAD section. Bug fixes should be public and can be a subpost on the build dev post etc and maybe a gcast if its a more serious issue. But that's really it.

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daedroth
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby daedroth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:32 am

The tune that never changes. Sure glad I am not a builder, I would have rage quit yonks ago :D

PS. Wouldn't posting bugs about OAD's give an insight into how to do them?
:popcorn:
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NiteHawk
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:39 am

daedroth wrote:The tune that never changes. Sure glad I am not a builder, I would have rage quit yonks ago :D

PS. Wouldn't posting bugs about OAD's give an insight into how to do them?
:popcorn:


Bugs that do not have to be posted won't be. AKA if no one got to the big bad monster and found out he doesn't die because of an accidental undead set/mirror room set/etc then there is no reason to post.

However, if a party has been getting there or we are unsure if someone has, then a simple message about it being fixed can be said. It doesn't need to notify HOW to do it. Aka "The problem with 'Big Bad Monster A' has been resolved and there is a clear method to defeat him now". which I think is fine in that case. It doesn't give any exact info; only that if you progressed there for a few days and couldn't get past it, you at least know it's working now and you can get past it. Revealing a monster name is not a big deal and revealing how to get past is not required.

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daedroth
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby daedroth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:44 am

Ah I see, basically give info but keep it vague enough so it's informational but not impacting.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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daedroth
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby daedroth » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 am

daedroth wrote:
NiteHawk wrote:I will say that the builder who ran it wouldn't know what does what. We don't allow people who know the OAD to run it under two conditions of that it must be completed first and a certain time must pass. Build server is fully logged and FTP is logged too. If there was any wiffs of attempts abuse they wouldn't be on staff.


I am quoting this because it has been said many times before by NH (staff actions are logged).

I am also linking the quote to this:
If you think there is any kind of corruption, report it to NH who can check logs (especially when it comes to staff, see quote above, but... here is a hint: (staff actions are logged) ).
Last edited by daedroth on Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:52 am

daedroth wrote:Ah I see, basically give info but keep it vague enough so it's informational but not impacting.


Image

anthriel
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby anthriel » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:53 am

Thank you for your prompt responses and for your openness/commitment towards greater transparency and communication of changes to the player base.

I personally have no real investment in the OADs since I will rarely ever run them myself. I do however find it sad to see players get demotivated from playing etc (which is unfortunately something that keeps occurring in this game for various reasons) and that is why I wanted to post to see if it could be addressed in a simple manner. If there's any changes i'd definitely rather hear it first-hand from staff than second/third-hand from disgruntled players who want to quit after some drama has erupted.

Thank you again to NH and all builders for your work on the new update. Peace


PS - Based on daedroth & lat's responses i wanted to reiterate that I am not alleging corruption. I am basically suggesting that logging stuff transparently would be much preferable than hearing many players get upset and want to stop playing because of potential notions of unfairness or whatever.

Terron
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Re: Build Transparency & Change Logging

Postby Terron » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:11 am

this does read like an "we think you cheat post"

imo the more transparent staff are the less exciting everything is when its released.

these fools are trying to drive the staff away by saying they cheat, and not once or twice, its every single day , hours on end, for months after every new implement lol. no staff = no stuff.
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