Guilds Redux

anthriel
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby anthriel » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:51 pm

I find it amusing that in the previous month of silence on this thread, the point that something still needs to be done to fix the superguild system has proven itself in-game many times over. There’s been so much drama within the super-guilds (which has again spilled over into staff and different player sub-factions). Even the people who were previously denying that the current system is problematic on this thread have found themselves as central characters in all this. Perhaps they like to play that way and enjoy the drama/toxicity/politics/etc. But many others I talk to (and myself included) don’t, and have therefore increasingly gone idle/inactive.

So this is just a reminder/suggestion that this issue should still be on top of agenda and something still needs to be done imho. And the sooner the better. The longer we wait means the more goodwill for this game is getting eroded as ppl act like children towards each other and sow seeds of hatred that can’t really be undone once done. Therefore what is a good and evolving game is crippled by the hatefulness of people that the current guild system leaves no way to avoid (in a choice of 2 main guilds you are bound to have to deal with some people/person you dislike or who have caused you grief at some point - and that’s hardly an enjoyable way to spend leisure hours). Better to find a way to let ppl coexist happier in smaller groups soon - before toxicity etc leaves too much of an irreversible bad taste in ppls mouths methinks. Peace.

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Folder
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Folder » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:44 pm

I don't think you can fix this by telling people what guild to play in. It's as simple as this - you're going to get Empire 1 and Empire 2 that coordinate on discord together. It won't change anything, you're fighting human nature here. Your average player just wants to play for gear and getting gear = run with the most players. You can zerg and zombie everything until you win. That's really all that matters to most people and you can not change that regardless of what guild you force them to join.

Wish I had a solution to this but as I said you're fighting human nature and no one is winning that one. I think the only thing splitting up guilds accomplishes is hurting the casuals who play for fun and chatting. The people who grind away for 12 hours a day won't do anything different.

And we're the small guild now, to be clear. I just don't think ripping Empire apart is going to magically fix the guild balance issue.
<Silhouette>

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daedroth
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby daedroth » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:49 pm

Folder wrote:I don't think you can fix this by telling people what guild to play in. It's as simple as this - you're going to get Empire 1 and Empire 2 that coordinate on discord together. It won't change anything, you're fighting human nature here. Your average player just wants to play for gear and getting gear = run with the most players. You can zerg and zombie everything until you win. That's really all that matters to most people and you can not change that regardless of what guild you force them to join.

Wish I had a solution to this but as I said you're fighting human nature and no one is winning that one. I think the only thing splitting up guilds accomplishes is hurting the casuals who play for fun and chatting. The people who grind away for 12 hours a day won't do anything different.

And we're the small guild now, to be clear. I just don't think ripping Empire apart is going to magically fix the guild balance issue.


Yes, Silh is the small clan of casual players :)
Not numerous or hardcore enough to compete... this... is the end...
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
I love sheep.

Terron
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:50 pm

sad to say it, but im full circle back to where i was ages ago. small game with player run guilds dont work. u could have npc ran guilds with bonuses/penalties. or even divinity based guilds. but like jake said its human nature to flock everyone to 1 mass guild. its not because its more fun. its just the fact that every boss is zerged to oblivion with minimal effort and time. hell even world walkers barely kill anyone.

what we have is literally 2 guilds with different loot systems. 1 guild all the daily competitors get burnt out trying to gather gear in a guild based loot system. system is pretty fair and props to silh for being around for so long. but every steady player that gets burnt out for putting in so much effort for lower rewards leaves and never wants to come back.

the other guild option has nearly every active player in it they zerg keys with sometimes more than 2 full parties. yet when its boss time the same handful of people run the boss and get all loot. this guild loses almost every casual player who generally join silh later on if they dont quit entirely. i think their system has changed slightly to get more people involved in gear, but its still primarily the same zerg bosses with overwhelming troops so your time dedicated to each oad is nearly nothing. whereas the other guild is running oads with 2 and 3 people taking ages to complete.

pretty much just going to be blunt about it, game needs no guilds at all, unless its npc controlled. theres no way the game can get enough players to balance guilds out. even MMO's have trouble with it because every good player and all their friends are almost always in 1 guild. You can go see a game with 300k players and 1 guild still just zergs.

Ive been a member of silhouette since before the character wipe and just had to leave. nothing against them at all, i still love them. however, the ingame implements (and events) are all catering to or directly because of the mass guild zerg. just cant do it anymore, it makes the game so boring. oads done in 3-7 minutes, minibosses always slain, world walkers that unaffect all day and hit like pussies. all that on top of whining about how much "Work" u put in on a 5 minute oad. shits unreal, it takes a level 22 4 minutes to kill a trail bandit, where is the purples for that?

for now im flying solo and log on for content thats directed for very few players, if its not in or not ingame ill just log off. theres just not much incentive to stay logged in as a full time player as just joining hugest guild and devoting 5 minutes 4-5x a day.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Mort
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Mort » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:48 pm

I'd love to see this thread cleaned up and the my feelings and off-topic stuff removed so just the ideas remain it's currently a lot to reread and form an opinion on.
I am for guild reform just not sure who had the best thoughts on it.

Boon
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Boon » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:51 pm

It is so interesting to read the posts about this same topic and see how so many peoples point of view has changed over time.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2296
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2056
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1201
These are all different posts on this exact same topic. I am also sure there are more I just got tired of digging through the forums.

anthriel
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby anthriel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:02 pm

Folder wrote:I don't think you can fix this by telling people what guild to play in. It's as simple as this - you're going to get Empire 1 and Empire 2 that coordinate on discord together. It won't change anything, you're fighting human nature here. Your average player just wants to play for gear and getting gear = run with the most players. You can zerg and zombie everything until you win. That's really all that matters to most people and you can not change that regardless of what guild you force them to join.

Wish I had a solution to this but as I said you're fighting human nature and no one is winning that one. I think the only thing splitting up guilds accomplishes is hurting the casuals who play for fun and chatting. The people who grind away for 12 hours a day won't do anything different.

And we're the small guild now, to be clear. I just don't think ripping Empire apart is going to magically fix the guild balance issue.


Sure you are fighting human nature. But that doesn't mean things cant improve with different incentives for behaviour. If we left things to human nature in the democratic world, we would have massive monopolies/oligopolies controlling every single industry, and the customers would suffer. Yet most democratic governments have implemented laws that protect from anti-competitive trade practices, meaning that monopolising a market is much harder to do and the customer generally benefits from this. Even if we had Empire 1, Empire 2, Silh 1 and Silh 2 etc trying to coordinate on discord, this would be preferable as eventually their ideologies would probably differ etc anyway and there would be less scope for having to tolerate ppl you dont like in one superguild etc.

As for "hurting the casual players who play for fun and chatting".... i am one of these players. Global chat already has helped improved chatting for casuals etc but what hurts is when people you are friends with stop playing due to too much toxicity and drama. Logging to see demotivated people, your friends having quit, or people acting like children such that you really dont want to chat with them anyway - this is what really kills the fun and chatting of casual players. And this can be chalked up somewhat to human nature yes. But its exacerbated by super-guild system imho, and we shouldnt be defeatist about "human nature" when we havent even tried fixes to address the elephant in the room yet. Peace

Terron
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:06 pm

slightly off topic but global was trash until bans started happening. it took 2 months of garbage to have the chat semi useful.

as far as casuals. there isnt much that can be done to guilds to make a casual compete. as in, anything solo worthy for a casual player will be slaughtered by enforcer greed guild in under 1 minute. the fact of it is the numbers in a guild are irrelevant. i have played similar muds that have no guilds at all and even a couple with no partying system. friends will still group with friends. 5 will always beat 2. 13 will always beat 5. not going to fix the game with whats been implemented lately either, heal and pot decay both suck. waste of time in hopes of balancing even fights for an "end". problem is that 95% of fights aren't even and implements to enforce even fights werent added first. perhaps those additions could shine by creating a balance script for alot of areas. lets say a key square allows 5 accts max of any guild. there u go fights are almost entirely even now. next step would be disallowing guildless inside because its an obvious attempt to workaround the system. anyone who leaves a guild should have 3 day cooldown on joining a new guild. after this would be locking keys with a guild lock so several empire/silh groups cant merge keys and loophole the system with more 15v5s. lastly a cooldown or lockout on how many accts can swap out on a square. this is to prevent 20 guild members lining up outside to replace dead/sick friends at every possible second.

anyway i dunno if giving incentives for running smaller guilds will work w/o a cap on guild power. numbers in guild shouldnt change, but a per square cap for guilds would shut this shit down quick and everyone thats highly active will want smaller guilds.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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daedroth
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby daedroth » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:44 am

I honestly cannot think of how to improve the guild thing. You would have to put in so much if buts and maybe's that you would need PhD to figure out the rules if you were to try and make things "fair" (as in setting the game so that everyone has even chances and appealing for everyone).

People will always factionalise. I still don't like the divinity idea, although I can see it makes sense (if the divinity system was changed then I would like it better, I still hate the divinity system, but that's a topic I've mentioned several times before, so I will stop flogging the poor dead horse).

I still think factions are the better way to go (still flawed though, I see people joining the same factions as their "guildies/friends", and well it's my idea so off course I like it).

Race Wars? We cannot introduce racism into the game! I will not tolerate this! This is kind of like factions though, and would you have restrictions on what race you could have on your account?

Cracking down more on the toxicity might help, as in quicker bans (off course this may backfire and have people leave the game or be baited by others into getting banned).

Remove PvP from certain locations? This would be restrictive and remove the fun for certain players.

Bah, most of this shit has been talked to death before!

How about a lobotomy for all players and people who join the game? Nah nah, you are right, too extreme.

The pker becomes a criminal idea that was mentioned before? Have bandit shops and such for them to go to (but the prices for the good are higher than normal, maybe inferior). So... you go to a oad/key, someone else is there, you attack them, you become a criminal, they can now attack you back and not be labelled a criminal, or you try to kill the oad first. What about ds'ing does it become a criminal act (then you have the rage of "WE GOT IT CRIT THEY CAME IN AND HIT IT ONCE FFS!", most damage dealt is the killer?, this was all discussed before as well)? Quests/bounties to clear your name. X amount of criminal actions and you become a criminal permanently, stealing from shops/npc's...

Meh, i'm gonna go have a cup of tea and try to waken up.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
I love sheep.

Rodeo
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Rodeo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:34 pm

Best idea I have seen is the 3 strikes idea posted earlier but even that has it flaws. >.>


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