Race Stat Changes

anthriel
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby anthriel » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:42 pm

NiteHawk wrote:Because being able to change races would dynamically make everyone cooker cutters and set everyone to a set few races. I don't think it would be fun or good at all if everyone was the same. Everyone would abuse it, specially vets, to change their characters into more useful ones.


I disagree that racial respec = everyone would have cookie cutters, as long as you have races with viable trade offs. Eg not everyone is a Horc slayer because there is a viable tradeoff in Saurians (some ppl rather big backstabs, others want to land more often). Its about presenting ppl with good choices, not punishing them for bad former ones.

NiteHawk wrote:Some people will find that X or Y might be better in X or Y situations, then they should level said char too. Giving a racial respec to everyone pretty much will probably shutdown any sort of leveling that still remains, too, etc.


Again, i think i ideologically disagree with you here and comments like these make me question how disconnected you might be from the ordinary experience of a common player playing your game. I believe that ppl wont be motivated to level if they think that the character they envision having at the end of a month of grinding is not going to be what they want. I've certainly lost interest in finishing several characters cos i now know that they are crap builds anyway so why bother making them 25ers. I cant be bothered starting new ones either because by the time i approach 25 there may be changes that make them useless too. Yes there are a small % of the community that can churn out 25er after 25er and can afford to level their 2nd or 3rd char of the same class, but the majority of players probably only have 2-7 25ers worth of leveling in them and then they want to get on with enjoying the end-game.... most ppl dislike leveling but will put up with it if they perceive there is a desired reward at the end (ie obtaining the character they envision having).... not presenting ppl with any other choice than to re-level new chars after any re-balancing is likely to destabilise faith in accomplishing that reward and be more de-motivational to leveling IMHO. I'm not saying racial respecs should be a free or easy thing (except as compensation for rebalancing)... merely a possible thing... i dont care if you make the item that does it a rare purple/orange one... it at least provides some end-game thing to strive for. Forcing ppl back into mid/early-game grind just to mask the fact that EO's end-game is lacking is not the right solution (and yes there are ways to make end game more interesting even with limited resources EO already has, but thats a different topic)

NiteHawk wrote:No, they aren't, so get them to post! I was simply making a point that a lot of discord members disagreed. I did not say that they represent everyone, only that there was a discussion about it. I however, wanted people to POST here so we can discuss it. Otherwise it's obviously hard to make opinions without people giving them. If you have friends who agree with you in game, then POST it. I've linked this in a bcast before too in game. We can't formulate stuff if people don't contribute, and no matter one each person who replies here is just that, one person in a bigger pool.


Getting the community to contribute to discussion is the domain of the game developer, not me as player (i'm already trying to help you by posting, for what its bloody worth). I think you need to ask yourself why people arent posting. Again, i could be wrong and only representing my own view but let me give you some possible suggestions in my opinion. In order to write posts, collect statistical proof, collect logs, chat on discord etc (i.e. all the stuff you want from players to help you make decisions), a player actually has to have a certain amount of care factor. They have to feel invested in the game. They need to feel that previous posts actually were listened to or appreciated or mattered etc. They wont post if they have already lost faith/care in the game and largely quit/gone inactive (i've tried to voice some of their reasons why they've quit, but i cant get these ppl to come back and post - sorry). They wont post anymore if they feel like previous posts have been ignored (by you not responding, or by not garnering enough interest from the skewed sub-community of regular posters to warrant your attention as an actual issue). They wont post anymore if they feel immediately shut-down by you after expressing their feelings about something (e.g. when you immediately throw game formulas at people to say they are wrong rather than saying "thankyou for posting your feelings" and validating their value as participants in discussion).


NiteHawk wrote:If you were referring to a group of players being IG or on a 3rd party chat client, I don't relate to them at all or know who really is in any of the guilds/groups. I'm not really close to anyone and I keep it that way to prevent drama, and to attempt to be fair on others. Kind of like the warden job, but on an admin level.


This confirms my suspicions that you dont actually play your own game, which would explain why some of your opinions about things seem so disconnected to me (or sound like opinions that have been fed to you by certain vocal ppl). While i really admire your desire to do this to remain neutral, i do actually think you actually need to find a way to play your own game abit (incognito and without actually tipping game balance) so you can get some first-hand understanding of issues (and not lightly make statements like "they should just level said character too")... Otherwise, you seem to express some very strong opinions about what "feels right/wrong" and what "will/wont happen" (eg racial respecs would destroy leveling) without any first-hand experience of your own in leveling your own 25er, interacting with ppl who do and get bored/frustrated in the end-game and quit etc (yes, i know you would have done this in Rok, but as you know well EO is a different game). If you only learn from those who stick around and are willing to post (ie your regular customers) you most likely wont grow this game long term even with advertising... you need to learn from those who have left or are starting to lose interest and leave (which can only come about if you get down and dirty interacting with ppl like that TV show "undercover boss" rather than expecting these people to care enough to post on forums etc - cos let me tell you i post on forums and for the life of me most days i wonder why i still bother). I know you are usually too busy developing the game to invest time playing/play-testing it (and the whole community is very grateful for that), but i wonder if your investment in playing a little would result in a small sacrifice in the quantity/speed of development for a much better quality of developments when they do come.

I am not your friend, so i can give you this honest feedback without fear of offending you. I dont know why i care enough to still post, and im pretty close to not caring anymore, but i do genuinely wish you and EO success that far surpasses Rok. I have given you what i can, and its up to you how you care to use it. I genuinely mean it when i say "peace and good luck".

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Eld
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Eld » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:46 am

anthriel wrote:stuff


I'm not sure if this is viable or wanted, but how about an option to delevel a character and convert half of their exp into an exp scroll? This exp scroll would be class locked to prevent abuse

i.e. say someone jokingly told me to make a dwarf bard, and i got it to level 22 before i realised it was a trash character (this actually happened to someone)

I could potentially convert half of that exp into a scroll that was locked for use on a bard.

I think the class locking and halving the values would overcome any possibility of abusing this mechanic, but i could be missing something


This doesn't help with all the gear they'd have SBed, but it would provide an option for the time spent levelling at least

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:47 am

Eld wrote:
anthriel wrote:stuff


I'm not sure if this is viable or wanted, but how about an option to delevel a character and convert half of their exp into an exp scroll? This exp scroll would be class locked to prevent abuse

i.e. say someone jokingly told me to make a dwarf bard, and i got it to level 22 before i realised it was a trash character (this actually happened to someone)

I could potentially convert half of that exp into a scroll that was locked for use on a bard.

I think the class locking and halving the values would overcome any possibility of abusing this mechanic, but i could be missing something


This doesn't help with all the gear they'd have SBed, but it would provide an option for the time spent levelling at least


Maybe this would be a solution idk. I guess personally I enjoy leveling not just end game so it wouldn't bother me to relevel a character if needed (although stat changes seem very minimal). Skill and tactic seem more valuable.

I guess what bugs me is saying hawk doesn't care about the game or appreciate the players because he has the foresight to know that race changes are a bad idea. I'm not saying I'm a god of game Dev or design but I do this for a living (outside of ember) I support a family on game design so I must be doing something right? While it might be a short term solution it's not great overall for the game and that's pretty clear to me. It's his choice what he does with his game but from a semi professional game Dev viewpoint race changes are not ideal it leads to cookie cutter builds and overall less play and overall less interaction(less people leveling and playing the game). Now I can see some type of pp purchase or iap type thing down the road but giving one out every balance change just isn't smart. Especially when he's so focused on balance that he's doing changes every few months. You guys maybe forget rok where you were lucky to get a balance change every few years.

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Styx
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Styx » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:56 am

What about a race build so it's a glass cannon melee type. Many suggestions for mage type so what cha all think?

Cyrus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Cyrus » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:08 am

Personally, I dont care what the new changes are, as long as we get to change races.
I'm sure it's possible to make a script for a trainer in seamoor where you have a month or whatever to go to to use up a 1-per char token you get where it will modify your race and force stat reallocation. So you would go to the guy and say /d xxx change to Saurian and it kicks you, you log back on as Saurian and reallocate points.

With all of these major changes it would be horrible if a class you lvl'd with a specific purpose suddenly became sub-optimal for those purposes. It would be a very shitty way of forcing players to lvl new characters to be honest and could cause great distress among the player base.
I thought we were supposed to be out of alpha/beta testing by now so such drastic changes shouldn't hurt the playerbase.

Also, casual players will be more affected than the hardcore players.


P.S.: I think proposal #3 is the least intrusive as it mostly buffs races and weakens others in comparison, rather than actually directly nerfing any races.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:36 pm

anthriel wrote:I disagree that racial respec = everyone would have cookie cutters, as long as you have races with viable trade offs. Eg not everyone is a Horc slayer because there is a viable tradeoff in Saurians (some ppl rather big backstabs, others want to land more often). Its about presenting ppl with good choices, not punishing them for bad former ones.


Normally bad choices are to do 'mostly' with stats and not races. I know there have been some people who used the completely wrong race for the class (lets say a elemental slayer, doesn't exist, but that's an extreme. If anything, if something like this was 'introduced', it would be more like your account gets lets say, two free racial change points and you can change two classes rather then being able to change all your races. I don't think many bar maybe the first couple characters a player might create have issues, and I still don't think you should be able to racial change twenty 25'ers.


Cyrus wrote:Personally, I dont care what the new changes are, as long as we get to change races.
I'm sure it's possible to make a script for a trainer in seamoor where you have a month or whatever to go to to use up a 1-per char token you get where it will modify your race and force stat reallocation. So you would go to the guy and say /d xxx change to Saurian and it kicks you, you log back on as Saurian and reallocate points.

With all of these major changes it would be horrible if a class you lvl'd with a specific purpose suddenly became sub-optimal for those purposes. It would be a very shitty way of forcing players to lvl new characters to be honest and could cause great distress among the player base.
I thought we were supposed to be out of alpha/beta testing by now so such drastic changes shouldn't hurt the playerbase.


What major changes are we talking about here? Saurians/HO are still going to be the goto for melee race without MR but bigger general bonuses. The other races aren't being changes to a point of being seriously effected. A script or bonus token is a better idea though to change your race is another thing, kinda like the monster pics, but that would be more of a earned thing rather than everyone gets one. I do need to make a way to force reallocation though atm.


Eld wrote:I'm not sure if this is viable or wanted, but how about an option to delevel a character and convert half of their exp into an exp scroll? This exp scroll would be class locked to prevent abuse


The EXP scroll thing might be an option though. Kind of like retaining at least some XP for it. I would assume you would need specific amounts or maybe a full amount. I.E: using this scroll will remove all your XP/put you to level 1 and give you half the XP back as a scroll. I dunno about class locking though because if you class lock scrolls what's the point of using scrolls? You might as well allow racial reallocations but for a XP fee on the character similar to how it is now, just a heftier fee. That would be a possibility too, and maybe a better choice to prevent abuse. Or a mix of what a I talked about with ant above and racial reallocations costing XP.


Styx wrote:What about a race build so it's a glass cannon melee type. Many suggestions for mage type so what cha all think?


I would probably refrain from adding new races until we figure out what to do with the current ones. I do want to eventually add a couple in betweeners but I think right now that would be a bad idea. Feel free to post on your ideas though, but be better in another thread so its not lost in these pages.


-------

Ok lets get another proposal example going. Check #5 now. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

You need to look at all races and think if they are viable in any situation or if they are being overshadowed in prop ¤5. Remember with stat points I will give out one or two allocation points too depending on what they get generally.

For a goblin example you can make a:
19/22/20/14/17/10 goblin OR
19/22/21/10/16/10 goblin with a +1, the +1 could go anywhere. But thats 16 wis without INT so not viable for paladins I'd say because lowering wis hurts goblins hugely for INT.

DE's can do:
20/22/19/15/20/12 DE OR
20/22/20/10/18/10 DE with +1.

This makes them kind of equal though, except that DE has a choice to be a paladin/etc too with still OK MR. Something like a 20/22/19/17/18/10 is an option for DE. This means that DE's will have a LITTLE better MR or equal if we lower the goblin bonus to 15%. Then plays racial bonuses. Obviously goblins get a -10 damage reduction to spells and poison reduction. Both have infra.

They seem kind of close to being both useful though at that point with the END? Goblins focused more as fighters with spell reduction and poison reduction and DEs more as magic fighters or wanting more search out, hide chance, better spell usage, etc. They'd be ok druids too probably. That's just me looking at it though, feel free to voice on it.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby JadeFalcon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:52 pm

I am sorry.
Looking at this file, it seems like all races are becoming the "same" thing.

I do not like them.

(disclaimer: only race i care for are saurians, which arent affected)
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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:00 pm

JadeFalcon wrote:I am sorry.
Looking at this file, it seems like all races are becoming the "same" thing.

I do not like them.

(disclaimer: only race i care for are saurians, which arent affected)


The thing is though, races should vary a little, but I don't think we should have 'extreme case' races. I think all the races even with a few stat points differences are still beneficial. Races need to be usable, not completely different. And when i say not completely different, I am not saying 100% SIMILAR too.

Half orcs still have high damage, Saurians are still a great melee class, elves are a good all rounder for magic. gnomes are good at heaviest damage but weaker HP. Yeah it only varies a few points here and there, but I still think it makes a difference and matters.

Obviously I am not saying that #5 is anything final, we can still use any of the proposals here, just voicing my say though too :P

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:34 pm

JadeFalcon wrote:I am sorry.
Looking at this file, it seems like all races are becoming the "same" thing.

I do not like them.

(disclaimer: only race i care for are saurians, which arent affected)



I'd have to agree somewhat here I don't think we are that far off and I feel like 5 is kinda changing the whole system. I know it's harder to keep balance with a wider range of stats but at the same time I think it's more interesting to play and more of a reason to create diff combos of Alts which is good for the life of the game.

My vote is for option 4. It has the least amount of change keeps the races diverse but most importantly addresses the biggest issues.

The dwarf thing is interesting on option 5 tho and I could go either way. I like that dwarf has something unique with its end but understand that creates somewhat of a bigger gap so if that needs to go into option 4 to make it stick I can agree with it.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:01 pm

Lateralus wrote:
JadeFalcon wrote:I am sorry.
Looking at this file, it seems like all races are becoming the "same" thing.

I do not like them.

(disclaimer: only race i care for are saurians, which arent affected)



I'd have to agree somewhat here I don't think we are that far off and I feel like 5 is kinda changing the whole system. I know it's harder to keep balance with a wider range of stats but at the same time I think it's more interesting to play and more of a reason to create diff combos of Alts which is good for the life of the game.

My vote is for option 4. It has the least amount of change keeps the races diverse but most importantly addresses the biggest issues.

The dwarf thing is interesting on option 5 tho and I could go either way. I like that dwarf has something unique with its end but understand that creates somewhat of a bigger gap so if that needs to go into option 4 to make it stick I can agree with it.


Wider range and still usable need to go hand in hand though. Option 4 was adjusted just now though to reflect the dwarf changes since I think it is a good idea, to be honest.

I feel that in option 5 it would make more races useful in PVP/PVE too but if too many people disagree with it, I'll go with what most people feel is best at least for a trial. Would be nice to make it a one time change though as each change will upset players, obviously. Too minimize that we need to make sure it is 'what' best for all races and all races are usable.


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