Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Change the backstab mechanic?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:37 am

No! Moving back and forth is OK.
11
44%
Yes! Change it!
14
56%
 
Total votes: 25
Rodeo
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Rodeo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:20 am

I recall a great slayer player by the name of Naykor. He always brought a slayer on oads (rok) and excelled. Backstab then switch to sword and melee until you move. Long ago I suggested a /weaponswap command for chars to somewhat help with the issue of pve. Which now this could be implemented and all is good. ♡

Keep slayers the way they are.

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Tucker
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Tucker » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:24 pm

Inverno wrote:
JadeFalcon wrote:I vote no.
Assassins are supposed to be that, killers on 1vs1. They dont need to be good in PVE.
I think this might be an implicit nerf, since high Int chars will totally find the Slayers and break BS.
Also, i can easily drop 2 BS in 1,1.5 seconds, so...


Same here. They excel at PVP... dont need to be good at PVE.


If this is implemented properly this doesn't make them suddenly good at PVE it makes them not annoying as fuck to PVE with. They can stop dragging shit and be playable on locked rooms without the fake ladder build trick.

Also I submitted a .webm video file in discord of 4 stam being used in .95 seconds (i measured it in a video editor with 2 places past the decimal going frame by frame over a couple of attempts all were about .95 seconds unless i err'd. Now before someone gets cute I don't have a Slayer because they're annoying as fuck to level (this would fix that if implemented right) but I'm counting from the first stam (/hide #1) to the last stam (which will reply with a message saying I'm exh, but that's the same server response as an attack). Ping to the server is about .06 seconds for me so if you could easily add .1 or .06 to the timer.

The important thing to take from this shit is that a slayers two backstab combo currently is /hide (macro #1) a target (macro #2), move out(one keystroke), move back in (one keystroke), /hide (macro #1), a target (macro #2). That is six keystrokes at quickest (you can do it slower ofc).

The new combo is /hide, a target, /hide, a target (four keystrokes). Which means that the only thing being removed and that would need to be accounted for is moving out of a room and back into it. Everything else is exactly the same. The delay should rightly be around the time it takes to move out and back into a room which can be accomplished extremely fast. When I say extremely fast I mean over multiple tests looking frame by frame (I've got 144hz monitor) like .06 seconds or 60 milliseconds which is equivalent to an average ping for a lot of people.

It doesn't need to be that small of a delay but I would honestly start at like .4 and move backwards or forwards from there. Get the experienced Slayers to try the timing out and get their input and compare the numbers to examples of old-system Slayers.

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Lateralus
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Lateralus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:16 pm

I voted keep them the same. I mean I don't think it's too bad right now but giving them an auto delay means any skill there was involved in slayer pvp is taken away. An effective slayer needs to be fast. with the new delay everyone would just be the same taking a lot of the fun away from the class. I guess if you gave an option for both that would be ok.

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daedroth
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby daedroth » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:46 pm

Kinda funny.. this will actually benefit people who suck with slayers, and shouldnt affect those who are good with them...
Which is kinda a shame for those who are good with them. I mean although they wont be nerfed (so it seems) the poorer players (me included btw) will get a gold star participation medal!
Really mixed on this now I am thinking about it. It will benefit me for sure... but like I said shame about those who are actually good with slayers as is.
So I don't mind the change (since I will benefit) but eh... yeh.
Add an alternative!
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Lateralus
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Lateralus » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:55 pm

daedroth wrote:Kinda funny.. this will actually benefit people who suck with slayers, and shouldnt affect those who are good with them...
Which is kinda a shame for those who are good with them. I mean although they wont be nerfed (so it seems) the poorer players (me included btw) will get a gold star participation medal!
Really mixed on this now I am thinking about it. It will benefit me for sure... but like I said shame about those who are actually good with slayers as is.
So I don't mind the change (since I will benefit) but eh... yeh.
Add an alternative!



Yea this is exactly how I am seeing it. If you put the delay too low everyone will be godly with slayers. you put the delay too high and the truly skilled slayer players will get nerfed. Thats why I am against it or atleast leaving the option to use the old style as well. if you want to be lazy a bit slower use the new system if you are confident in your skills you would be free to use the old system.

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Eld
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Eld » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:10 pm

Lateralus wrote:
daedroth wrote:Kinda funny.. this will actually benefit people who suck with slayers, and shouldnt affect those who are good with them...
Which is kinda a shame for those who are good with them. I mean although they wont be nerfed (so it seems) the poorer players (me included btw) will get a gold star participation medal!
Really mixed on this now I am thinking about it. It will benefit me for sure... but like I said shame about those who are actually good with slayers as is.
So I don't mind the change (since I will benefit) but eh... yeh.
Add an alternative!



Yea this is exactly how I am seeing it. If you put the delay too low everyone will be godly with slayers. you put the delay too high and the truly skilled slayer players will get nerfed. Thats why I am against it or atleast leaving the option to use the old style as well. if you want to be lazy a bit slower use the new system if you are confident in your skills you would be free to use the old system.


Interesting compromise, could solve a lot of issues...
Timings would need balancing though, maybe same square stabs be balanced around slower average players.
Maybe have a training room where you test how fast you can double stab and have an automated leaderboard for bragging rights

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NiteHawk
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:31 pm

Eld wrote:
Lateralus wrote:
daedroth wrote:Kinda funny.. this will actually benefit people who suck with slayers, and shouldnt affect those who are good with them...
Which is kinda a shame for those who are good with them. I mean although they wont be nerfed (so it seems) the poorer players (me included btw) will get a gold star participation medal!
Really mixed on this now I am thinking about it. It will benefit me for sure... but like I said shame about those who are actually good with slayers as is.
So I don't mind the change (since I will benefit) but eh... yeh.
Add an alternative!



Yea this is exactly how I am seeing it. If you put the delay too low everyone will be godly with slayers. you put the delay too high and the truly skilled slayer players will get nerfed. Thats why I am against it or atleast leaving the option to use the old style as well. if you want to be lazy a bit slower use the new system if you are confident in your skills you would be free to use the old system.


Interesting compromise, could solve a lot of issues...
Timings would need balancing though, maybe same square stabs be balanced around slower average players.
Maybe have a training room where you test how fast you can double stab and have an automated leaderboard for bragging rights


I don't really like having two mechanics like this though, it bothers me a bit and I think it's more confusing to new players than anything. There really isn't an easy way to 'keep both' either. When you enter a square, what system does it use? etc, then gets to be more a hassle to deal with. suddenly you need variables to store and abuse proof mechanics. I'd either rather leave it the same, or adjust it to the new system.

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Tucker
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Tucker » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:46 pm

It's true this will take a very minor edge away for the best Slayers and flatten out the playing field... for two of the six commands that need to be entered for a round. There's still four other commands for you to show your mastery of MUD's you snowflakes.

Slow players or players who can't enter commands efficiently will still be slower and worse. The only way someone isn't able to move out and back into a room quickly is if they aren't using efficient movement and if they aren't doing that then its less likely they're using macro's and alias' to the same level of efficiency.

Also, lets stop calling it skill and acting like we're proposing removing some deep fucking mastery of the class when the pitch is to remove two completely unnecessary movement commands. I joked in a past thread (to illustrate this retardation with some hyperbole and non-nostalgia based examples) about how to give classes "skill" based requirements like Slayers have:

* Knights have to sharpen their blade before each attack (command: /sharpen).

* Ninjas have to type their preferred gods mantra at prompted intervals while meditating to heal, eg: /meditate, OOOOOOOMMMMMMM, OOOOOOOOMMMMM, OOOOOOOOMMMMM

* Priests have to self-flagellate when a spell fizzles to repent for their sins before continuing to heal. (Command /repent, costs 1 stamina and cannot act for 8 ticks)

This mechanic is the most frustrating and meaningless thing that's being supported for pure nostalgia, so if you all want this game to attract actual new players remove it. If you just want it to be for the old guard keep it if they vote to keep it I suppose. There was never a reason to have this mechanic, and any skill it brings is artificial through meaningless commands. There is no strategy or thought to it. Players who can't efficiently enter commands in this game will still be slower and worse than those who can, but now they are less likely to quit the game if they make an Assassin for a first crit lol

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NiteHawk
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:51 pm

Reason why I brought it up again was actually because of what I said earlier and hearing people quit over it. I know my mate who came from EO thought the mechanic was weird AF as well. It's not a very fun mechanic to level with really, ignoring all other things it does. For me I don't care if they are more/less useful in PVE, but being able to stay with your party while leveling and not lose XP, and not drag lots of mobs to the party, amongst other things, is a really nice thing.

Anyways I allowed votes to change too, but we'll see.

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Tucker
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Re: Backstabbing/Assassins n' Thieves

Postby Tucker » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:01 pm

I just think that if this was being proposed on a new class the vote would be 18-1 against it.

I'm not sure what the incentive is from people who want to keep it honestly, nostalgia paired with already having a Slayer leveled and no plans to level another I guess.


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