Improving Zerkers

[NiteHawk]

At the moment they do well in PVE but still have trouble in PVP. I was mucking around with them and also was testing a saurian one and the problem wasn't that he couldn't hit. The problem was that he couldn't flurry. He is literally a Knight without the AC or Shield Bash in PVP.

I really am for the active system, as I said again, being able to flurry at will would be helpful. There are other things we can do that would help. Let's state them all again though:

1. Active system. Only one additional attack, which would be /flurry. This would allow you to attempt a flurry if you had the rage points. Rage points can be build either by attacking, could be in a row (like it currently is) but allowing you to save the flurries instead. For example, I successfully attack twice in a row and gain one flurry point. I can use it as my next attack or save it. You could make it build up flurries up to maybe 3 (either it's a static value or can be based on something to gain more than 3 flurry saves). So for example. So any attack after two successful hits gains you a flurry point. You could even make a toggle between active and having the points being spent automatically so that it acts like the CURRENT system.


2. Not my favorite choice as it doesn't really show the flaunting of their flurry system, but increasing their base damage, and decreasing their flurry damage to be on pair. For example right now with 5 attacks.:
I hit for 170 damage.
I hit for 170 damage.
I flurry for 230 damage.
I flurry for 238 damage.
I flurry for 246 damage.
Totalling 1054 damage.

Instead it could be:

I hit for 190 damage.
I hit for 190 damage.
I flurry for 230 damage.
I flurry for 230 damage.
I flurry for 230 damage.
Totalling 1070 damage.


So the idea is that PVE would be the same but in PVP they'd do a little more damage. which will probably be the thing I would do if no other options are good.


3. The final idea is that your flurries buildup (aka to get to the point of flurry mode) does not get reset unless you move rooms. So misses won't remove flurries. I.E.
You hit for 170 damage!
You miss.
You hit for 170 damage!
You flurry for 230 damage!

or

You hit for 170 damage!
You miss!
You miss!
You hit for 170 damage!
You flurry and miss!

The idea is that after two successful hits, after the second one, you would attempt a flurry regardless of the miss count. I don't know how well this benefits in PVE, but in PVE most of the time they aren't missing so much anyways, and it would be the movement that resets them. This would at least allow them to flurry every now and than.


...

I was thinking that flurry could maybe have a higher hit chance, which IS possible, but getting flurries in PVP are pretty hard and I am not sure that even makes sense as a option 4.

What do people think? Where should we go. I am not exactly happy yet anyways and I'm sure they can be tweaked to be decent in PVP/PVE too.

[anthriel]

At the moment they do well in PVE but still have trouble in PVP. I was mucking around with them and also was testing a saurian one and the problem wasn't that he couldn't hit. The problem was that he couldn't flurry. He is literally a Knight without the AC or Shield Bash in PVP.
...

...

I was thinking that flurry could maybe have a higher hit chance, which IS possible, but getting flurries in PVP are pretty hard and I am not sure that even makes sense as a option 4.

What do people think? Where should we go. I am not exactly happy yet anyways and I'm sure they can be tweaked to be decent in PVP/PVE too.

Just a quick thought... why restrict yourself to tying flurries to a barb's hitrate at all? Sounds too much like copying the Monk model to me.

For example, you could easily tie the Barb ability to flurry to say the amount of times the Barb GETS hit instead (ie rage building up as he takes damage).... which im guessing would happen alot in both PVP and PVE ... such a thing might lead to new interesting builds (eg suddenly a low AGI barb may be a an OK idea as you could theoretically flurry more but still have lower hitrate than a high AGI one that flurries less cos of higher dodge but still hits more) and new strategies/possibilities ("dont group-attack the enemy party's barb first" or "hit and then heal our own party's barb so he builds up rage" etc)...

Shrugs will let the others pick it up from here... i dont really care too much for this issue anyways - there's prolly deeper things needing fixing imho

[Inverno]

For example, you could easily tie the Barb ability to flurry to say the amount of times the Barb GETS hit instead (ie rage building up as he takes damage).... which im guessing would happen alot in both PVP and PVE ... such a thing might lead to new interesting builds (eg suddenly a low AGI barb may be a an OK idea as you could theoretically flurry more but still have lower hitrate than a high AGI one that flurries less cos of higher dodge but still hits more) and new strategies/possibilities ("dont group-attack the enemy party's barb first" or "hit and then heal our own party's barb so he builds up rage" etc)...

Sounds good!

[Lavelia]

I like the idea of an active system. I wasn't around back then, so I didn't get a chance to vote. So. With that in mind. I'm voting for active system lol.

[Cyrus]

I like them now, the extra flurry damage is great in PVP for when you do finally land 1 of em, you can break priest-related deadlocks with high burst damage. I miss often, but when I do land the flurries it's 800+ damage in a round. Almost slayer like.

The idea of getting rid of misses cancelling flurry would help further improve this.

I do like the combination of 2 ideas: Getting hit builds up rage, and then using that in the active rage system. Makes sense from lore standpoint, the more you hit a zerker the more pissed off he gets.

[NiteHawk]

I like them now, the extra flurry damage is great in PVP for when you do finally land 1 of em, you can break priest-related deadlocks with high burst damage. I miss often, but when I do land the flurries it's 800+ damage in a round. Almost slayer like.

The idea of getting rid of misses canceling flurry would help further improve this.

I do like the combination of 2 ideas: Getting hit builds up rage, and then using that in the active rage system. Makes sense from lore standpoint, the more you hit a zerker the more pissed off he gets.

Well we talked about that too. It would shift them heavily out of PVE and into move PVP which also doesn't make much sense. I get that all classes get hit but its honestly pretty damn easy to rage on monsters right now due to the AGI difference of monsters vs players. While it would work from PVP standpoint, from a PVE one you would nerf their overall damage a good deal. From a PVP standpoint its nicer since you'll be hit rather. I don\t think I want to shift them completely out of PVE like that though.

Getting rid of misses is something that might work but its tough to say if that would be okay or if we'd have to go at least to 3 attacks to start flurries again. Maybe not though, might be okay as it is.

Can leave it for now, some people stay its fine too, need to test it more. I just don't feel like they do enough though. But eh.

[Cyrus]

I highly support any initiative to give them a hit rate bonus to flurries, which would impact PVP more without making them too powerful at pve.

[Rael]

Zerkers are good pve because they do alot of damage so they work well for farming but you do not see many go on main oads because they also take major damage aka priests nightmare lol.
Same goes for PvP it's possible to do big damage but way more likely to see a successful slayer then zerker atm. The down sides still out way positives atm.
I do like the idea of missing not resetting furry. I also like the idea of normal damage being upped because honestly a zerker should out hit a cav by a decent bit on a normal attack.
I have high hopes for zerkers it's a fun class but till then I'll stick with my high ac cav lol

[Cyrus]

i dislike this new change. zerker staying shelved till this changes.

[Folder]

i dislike this new change. zerker staying shelved till this changes.

This is probably a minor buff if anything though?