Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Reaper
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Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Reaper » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:08 am

Alright so I've sat on this for a while and I think it's time. Something needs to be done about Death Mages.

When everyone was crying OP when they made low MR characters, it was in fact decided through testing which I was involved in.. they were in fact not OP. Then it was mentioned that the leech heal could have its max lowered and I even agreed that bringing it down a little would be fine. I know that this isn't my game and my agreeing to this didn't really matter, but since I'm like the only person I know that mains a Death Mage...I feel my opinion counts for something.

The problem is that the way leech works, to lower the max the min HAS to be lowered as well, which rendered leech as being absolutely terrible when combined with DM's horrible damage. The end result is, no one really uses Death Mages anymore(including myself who loves them and WANTS to use one as my main again.) They have been left this way and are a pretty bad class to play right now.


SO, now we move on to the suggestions and ways to make them usable. I feel that their support abilities are unique and are pretty ok. Their utility and group support is nothing compared to an Enchanter of course, but they have enough I think.

1) Increase leech heal
The problem is, if leech heal is increased it would have to go back to the way it was. Now, as someone who played a DM it wasn't that much anyways, but as NH felt it was a bit too high at its max vs div this may not be the right option.

2) Increase damage
This is a simple way to compensate for the reduction in leech heal. Their damage should be increased to being on par with or at the very least very slightly under what a sorc is. Right now I am leeching for 98-100 damage on average vs div. I feel like an enchanters group support and overall useful spells compensate for DM's slight leech heals. So, the damage being equivalent or very very close to equivalent is justified(my opinion.)

3) DoT spells
Instead of increasing damage or increasing heal, give them another div based DoT spell and make it stackable with rot. This would make their primary damage being DoT opposed to alpha damage. I don't know the exact damage rot does over time, but if it's a lot the new one would be less or if it's not a lot then they could be the same.

4) Increase Rot ticks
Just make Rot tick for more instead to make them more DoT based.(although I like two dot spells just for more spells and to take two casts instead of just one for the same damage...balance and all)


I don't want Death Mages to be OP, I just want them to be good. Someone else mentioned the DoT suggestions to me and I like them the best, just so it makes Death Mages as powerful or at least VERY close to as powerful as an enchanter, but in different ways. Not alpha damage but a slow burn.

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daedroth
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby daedroth » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:07 am

I have only used my necro here and there, but I have noticed he is way less independent than he used to be (translated: solo levelling is more awkward than it used to be).

But yeh... I have not used my necro in enough situations to judge properly, but I know Reaper has.

On a side note - I am fairly sure necros don't get exp for their DoT (rot) damage (I mean the damage per tick, I think they get the EXP from the "alpha" damage of it, also fairly sure they get exp from the kill... hmmm I'd need to check to be sure though). I think they should since the damage is due to one of the necros spells. I stopped using it pve because of that reason.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:38 am

DMs are on the todo list but they need good tweak or two. I have other classes on my plate ATM but they'll be looked at sooner or later.

Increasing damage however makes their damage higher than sorcs, which doesn't make much sense, they're damage is just under though they do things like poison and leech. The actual ticks etc could look into.

Yeah you don't get XP for ticks, you won't ever. That would require such a huge overhaul of the status system right now, so won't happen.

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Tucker
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Tucker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:29 pm

Has anyone thrown around the idea of buffing their undead summon? Perhaps give them a second summon so that they can have 2 up at once and maybe buff them so that they heal the Necro for 1/3 of their dmg instead of themselves? It makes some thematic sense for a Necromancer to have a small undead army. Them being up and alive and hitting things could give the Necro tiny heals over time. It makes sense that their minions would help him rather than just being useless cannon fodder weaker than a Chanters summon. If there were two at once and they were buffed a bit the class could be very interesting.

That being said I don't play the class at all yet so I'm curious what Rot damage is like? Does anyone know the values or have an example for how much Rot damages over time and over how long? I.E. 10 ticks of 20 dmg? 5 ticks of 35 dmg? Rot could definitely be buffed based on how I never have been hit by the spell before and never see the class used heheh

Cyrus
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Cyrus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:05 pm

Tucker wrote:Has anyone thrown around the idea of buffing their undead summon? Perhaps give them a second summon so that they can have 2 up at once and maybe buff them so that they heal the Necro for 1/3 of their dmg instead of themselves? It makes some thematic sense for a Necromancer to have a small undead army. Them being up and alive and hitting things could give the Necro tiny heals over time. It makes sense that their minions would help him rather than just being useless cannon fodder weaker than a Chanters summon. If there were two at once and they were buffed a bit the class could be very interesting.


That could be interesting and more fun. It also would contribute passively to groups as they now offer meat shields versus AC/STR buffs and the many other utility spells Sorcs have.

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Tucker
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Tucker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:17 pm

Yeah and with OAD's and stuff those just tank one hit and die so they're equal to Chanters which sucks since chanters have more dmg and more utility to parties. Necros may be a cool solo class due to their self heal but Chanters can just buy pots for the same effect :/

Another thought is that if anyone were to ever get a low duration root/paralyze ability make it Death Mages :D they'd be played for how useful that is to PK'ing and hunting down people who might try to escape from OAD's or Events with a cool item. I think that mechanic couldn't be as long as other paralyzes in game (which are like 30seconds or something) but it'd really open some strategy to the game.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:28 pm

Honestly an issue with Rot is duration, doesn't last long enough. theres spells and potions to counter poison, no one uses it because who cares when duration sucks. Cant have a high duration with the amount though, I raised it to 60 seconds as a test and I was 600HP less. It hurts though.

But moderate damage high duration (1-2m) might be a good thing, and probably removing some randomness to the leech on same damage would help.

Paralyzing and anything pvp is a terrible idea. Rooting maybe, but I'd think a on demand thing that can easily be used constantly would be a bad idea. I see rooting more of a thief trap thing which can't be set constantly to trap said person easily. I think rooting would really destroy levelers too hard though if it was an easy thing.

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Tucker
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Tucker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:40 pm

I just really like the concept of roots/lock down of some sort. It makes for some awesome gameplay. Some sort of root ability in PVP down the line would definitely be game changing but would be a really good addition. Most games have a lot of crowd control features that give a really cool depth of gameplay and while it's trickier on a text MUD it can still be done in a balanced way. This is likely more end game stuff though and not high priority so its a bit off-topic, but I think if any class could get it (other than traps from rangers or thieves) it'd be Necro's to give them some distinction from Chanters.

Or perhaps make poison a unique status affect that causes stamina loss/exhaustion much like the bridges in the new meteor quest area or autosneaking. That'd effectively be a 'slow' while under the poison duration. Poison can still be healed with pots, spells, or resisted by classes/races, but it'd give the spell an interesting crowd control like aspect. If someone is poisoned and they run around they'll lose 1 stamina per X# of squares or something

Edit: One of my favorite areas is the Dread's lap of Vila traps. If you get stuck with enemies on a Vila square you are stuck fighting them til the death or killing the Vila and running. It makes for interesting gameplay, fun OAD's, and risky levelling/pking/group fights.

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Styx
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Styx » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Some villa trap are ok, mulittle Vila traps are so annoying.

Personally I prefer real Thief traps, in multiples for 2k dammage

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Lateralus
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Re: Alright...let's do this. DEATH MAGE

Postby Lateralus » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:21 pm

You know a dm beats a chanter head to head and does better 1v1 than a chanter against other classes right?


Damage output is about what 15-20 less if that per cast?
You gain back 30ish hp per hit.

That means a chanter is taking about 50-60 more damage per round on average. That's not counting if you land your dot or cast wither on on them which makes more of a gap.with wither blast and leech damage are about the same. This is not enough to overcome the minor 2.5% mr bonus chanters get over dms.

Against other things than chanter you have higher ac from natural armor so dms best chanters there too...

This isn't event taking into account that their pet hits harder, has more hp and heals you....

Chanters are not bad. I'd say they are above mid range so that would mean dms are in a pretty good spot. If you think dms need a buff then chanters do too even more so.


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