Race Stat Changes

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NiteHawk
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Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:40 am

EDIT: PROPOSAL CHANGE SHEET: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =711985442

Changing as we see it

I want to try to attempt to tweak the races a little. I think 17 END is too low and the minimum should be 18 END. However, if this isn't good, we need to probably rethink how END per point works. The thing with modifying minimum END to 18 was obviously other races get shadowed so there are some slight tweaks to a few races. This doesn't include bonuses so make sure you think about those too, but I am interested to know if this is OK or we shouldn't do this and any issues you might see with it. Alot of the fighter races seemed OK and aren't touched at the moment. Feel free to bring up suggestions thouhg.

I have also made some slight adjustments to races to hopefully make them more useful or different too.

Code: Select all

             ST   AG   EN   IN   WI   CH      DIFF
Gnome        16   21   18   23   22   20      +1 INT/+1 END
Halfling     18   23   18   20   20   22      +1 END
Dark Elf     20   22   18   20   20   16      
Elf          18   22   19   21   21   22      +1 END
Half Elf     19   21   20   20   20   21      +1 END
Goblin       19   22   20   16   17   14      -1 INT
Human        20   20   21   20   20   20      +1 END
Saurian      22   22   19   14   14   14   
Drakeblood   21   22   20   12   12   20      
Elemental    14   19   20   21   23   14      
Half Orc     24   19   22   14   14   14   
Dwarf        21   19   23   17   20   16


Goblins main focus (I felt) is to continue being a fighter thats good against combatting spell casters too, so I tried to change it a little so they are a bit different than HE's. Obviously remember the bonuses Goblins get which makes them better at MR than HE's in the end. I wanted to try to differ them more though hense the loss of INT which doesn't really affect so much.


I gave gnomes +1 INT but I was wondering if +2 INT would be better. With the increase of END though I don't think it is needed.

---------------------

If that is not 'good' then the changes I would propose are these. +2 INT for gnomes, +1 AGI for Lings. I still want to bring down goblins INT by -1 or -2 if anything too (since HEs aren't getting any bonus to END now), trying to keep HE and goblin more separate there.

Even with the AGI changes, I feel for example, theres no point to go ling over goblin for a magic resist race for only +1 agi, -2 str, and -3 END, and their bonuses, so they need to have a qwerk, which would be more AGI by two compared to other races.

anthriel
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby anthriel » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:16 am

Just to clarify (in order to help us consider better), are you proposing the above changes with no changes to the current amount of allocatable points for each race? Eg gnomes still have 109 usable points and therefore could still afford to +1 INT to achieve 24int etc?

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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 am

anthriel wrote:Just to clarify (in order to help us consider better), are you proposing the above changes with no changes to the current amount of allocatable points for each race? Eg gnomes still have 109 usable points and therefore could still afford to +1 INT to achieve 24int etc?


There may be allocation changes too but I'm not factoring it in yet. If you have opinions on it feel free to throw them out there too. Gnomes already have fairly high allocation so I don't think it's an issue with a race like that (pretty sure).

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:38 am

I wasn't a super fan of raising end across the board like done. I did like that there are some glass cannon races and I'm not saying that to screw over anyone I actually play gnome quite a bit. However after looking I do kinda like the changes and it's not so bad since you upped about half the classes end. In turn this somewhat lowers the power races: half orc lizard drake dwarf so I'm a fan.

I think I agree with it all however I think dark elf kinda gets the shaft they were never a power race and now they are getting left behind even more. I'm not sure I'd give them an extra end but Maybe just a few extra pool points Idk otherwise looks good.

Will make people harder to kill which I'm not sure is a good thing but with more purple items coming around meaning dps going up plus maybe casters getting some extra dmg from staves it shouldn't be horrible.

Ps is still rather human get 2 +1 or a +2 if possible but I know that would be a pain to code.

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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:50 am

P.S. If gnomes couldnt do 24int without sacrificing wis I'd probably give them another allocation point though.


Lateralus wrote:I wasn't a super fan of raising end across the board like done. I did like that there are some glass cannon races and I'm not saying that to screw over anyone I actually play gnome quite a bit. However after looking I do kinda like the changes and it's not so bad since you upped about half the classes end. In turn this somewhat lowers the power races: half orc lizard drake dwarf so I'm a fan.

I think I agree with it all however I think dark elf kinda gets the shaft they were never a power race and now they are getting left behind even more. I'm not sure I'd give them an extra end but Maybe just a few extra pool points Idk otherwise looks good.

Will make people harder to kill which I'm not sure is a good thing but with more purple items coming around meaning dps going up plus maybe casters getting some extra dmg from staves it shouldn't be horrible.

Ps is still rather human get 2 +1 or a +2 if possible but I know that would be a pain to code.



From the general viewing I don't think many of the races I +1'd cept maybe Elves are being used really. They aren't really glass cannons either, that would imply they can deal high damage too, which most of them can't.

It's really hard to balance high strength/damage with a varying HP pool as we have though. Nothing is set on stone though but I simply feel like the races are being ignored (by the most) and will continue to be ignored unless they are modified a little.

I want to look at weapons giving magic bonuses but I'm waiting until AGI and possible this is all in first


Code: Select all

             ST   AG   EN   IN   WI   CH
Halfling     18   23   18   20   20   22
Dark Elf     20   22   18   20   20   16     
Elf          18   22   19   21   21   22
Half Elf     19   21   20   20   20   21
Human        20   20   21   20   20   20


They could get +1 end too but I was wondering about this. Looking at their stats on their 'group'.

They have +2 STR, -1 AGI, -6CHAR from lings.
They have +2 STR, -1 END, -1 WIS, -1 INT, -6 CHAR from Elves.
They have +1 STR, +1 AGI, -2 END, -5 CHAR from HE.
They have +2 AGI, -3 END, -4 CHAR from Humans.

I don't think they are terrible. I did group them with lings rather than others because they are very similar to lings. (2 str for 1 agi and some char). Are they really that bad? Perhaps we can look at getting them more unique with other bonuses. For example, also giving them needing only +2 points to make a bonus point, or giving them more MR, or something similar to other bonuses we may have on other races.

Again not needed, we could simply give some points to some races (AGI to lings, INT to gnomes, etc) but I'm not sure thats the root of their problems really, even with fixed AGI rates.

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:57 am

Overall id support either solution. Like i said part of me would rather not raise end on everything because I like the glass cannons of some classes giving a bit more diversity. At the same time adding an end point to the balance races somewhat nerfs the power races (orc lizrd drake dwarf elemental) which I am a fan of.

Add End
-balances races a bit more overall but less diversity
-power races are more on par with balance races

Just adding agi to halfling and int to gnome
-less change overall in the races
-more diversity in the races overall


The only reason i bring up de is not because they are bad but they are not great and giving pretty much all the non power races +1 end while they gain nothing means they kinda drop to the bottom imo. I am not saying they need an end or an agi maybe just a few more points or something racial otherwise I do think they fall behind since they are lower middle of the pack atm imo.

I know this is a bit off topic but even reducing magical damage by say 40-50 points at max level and them making it so top level staves give 40-60 extra spell damage would be a huge improvement for gear progression (almost double the progression). atm you really only work through 1 1/2 gears on a caster (body armor and much lesser extent light helm)

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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:06 am

Lateralus wrote:I know this is a bit off topic but even reducing magical damage by say 40-50 points at max level and them making it so top level staves give 40-60 extra spell damage...


That is the idea.

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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:10 am

The problem with DE is I don't think they are too far terrible, just a little boring.

If the stats were
Halfling 18 23 18 20 20 22
Dark Elf 20 22 19 20 20 16

There would be seldom reason to pick ling. DE gets +2 str, +1 end, -1 agi. Char obv is lower but for most races it's normally a dump stat.

Rather, if DEs are bad, then Lings must be worse, even right now since AGI doesn't matter as much as it should.

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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Dan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:16 am

Hello, glad to see how things are improving, NH. It sure will make the game better and better.

Here are some considerations by my part, that btw, hope this game get as balanced and diversified as it can get.

By first, i thought gnomes and lings didnt need a +1 END because they are really small and wouldnt fit them, but there is something i got figured out by experience: PVE bosses double taps most likely kill them. So to me, they are extremely necessary for those two races, to make them viable against bosses.

About giving other races +1 END there aren't races with 21 natural END so i think its a good idea giving it to humans and HE, and wouldnt make them op bc they are not top tier in anything atm.

About goblins, i feel like WTH, they shouldn have 20 END, 17 WiS and still have MR bonus. That's like forcing players to make one.

I think they should be a slightly weaker, better magic resistant saurian. So 19 End, 14 int, 15 wis with mr bonus would do the job, and make lings still an option.

AGI: i would not change anything, just make racial bonus to dodge, based on racial physical characteristics. If not viable, i would give gnomes and lings +1 to balance they low END (that is to make them more viable at pvp).

I am just worried about the AGI gap between races after changing how agi works, maybe it would be necessary to add +1 Agi to 19/20 max Agi races so we get them 20/21 and move on.

O/

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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:29 am

AGI isn't changing a huge deal, it just needs slight tweakings I think. HO's with a min of 20agi to me would be too much since they have a powerhouse hit and high END.

The idea on goblins is they are magical fighters. They shouldn't BE good magical users though. Just resistances. Looking at the list again:

Code: Select all

             ST   AG   EN   IN   WI   CH      DIFF
Goblin       19   22   20   16   17   14      -1 INT
Saurian      22   22   19   14   14   14   
Drakeblood   21   22   20   12   12   20     
Half Orc     24   19   22   14   14   14   
Dwarf        21   19   23   17   20   16


Goblins have -3 str in favor for +1 end and 3 more wisdom. Maybe the MR bonus is too high but I don't see the stats being too bad for a difference in fighter classes. I would think if you lowered END on goblins that people who play fighter classes probably wouldn't sacrifice the damage for some magical wisdom (even now alot of people don't.). Not sure though. I do agree INT could be a tad lower too though on them.

Right now goblins with 17 wisdom is about the same as having 19-20 wisdom with other races. So it's around the same as the 19+ wis classes.

Let us pretend they have a max of 20 wisdom on goblins (THIS IS NOT THE CASE!!! Just to simulate their wisdom). Based on my changes.

Code: Select all

             ST   AG   EN   IN   WI   CH
Goblin       19   22   20   16   20   14     
Halfling     18   23   18   20   20   22      -1 str, +1 agi, -2end, +4 int, +8 chr
Dark Elf     20   22   18   20   20   16      +1str, -2end, +4 int, +2 char
Elf          18   22   19   21   21   22      -1str, -1end, +5 int, +1 int, +8 chr
Half Elf     19   21   20   20   20   21      -1 agi, +4 int, +7 chr
Human        20   20   21   20   20   20      +1 str, -2agi, +1end, +4int, +6 chr


I kind of classify them as a inbetween these and heavier fighter races. Lower wisdom keeps them away from OP druids, but they could probably do with 14 or 16 int instead.


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