Race Stat Changes

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:01 am

Terron wrote:a pk ninja with less than a half % chance to hit 5 for 5 and still do less damage than an average slayer hitting 2x. im not saying a slayer cant be the best pker around and have major solo value, just at the moment its a tad excessive.

i didnt even say they need removed its just the game is 1 sided in their favor right now. the class can all be lizards and even kill their theoretical weakness. as chanters still cant round them and need to hit 7-8 times which can be 3+ rounds vs 10 wis.

for the time being a str brigand(x3) is plenty of damage, slayer is overkill. until theres more mage types(some with burst damage) and some other burst damage melee classes to offer competition slayer is way out of proportion.


Completely disagree.
- 1vs1 in a fair duel, a 25er slayer can be beaten by lots of classes (trust me i know)
- You are neglecting the level of the target, also. Its completely different when we are talking about a lvl 25 vs a lvl 16, or a lvl 25 vs a lvl 24 (mind you, lvl 24 sorcs can beat lvl 25 saurians, and not make it even close)

The reason you see many lizards is because people don't invest in enchanters - and therefore people don't invest in high MR slayers/ninja's, such as halflings. Its not a question of strength, i positively s*** myself when i see Xpose around, and i wont attack enchanter's (or elder druids).
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daedroth
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby daedroth » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:26 am

JadeFalcon wrote:... i positively s*** myself when i see Xpose around ...

Because he exposes himself!
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Terron
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:19 am

the reason noone selects mages is because they dont have a major dominance factor over every character including their weakness. its like selecting a gnome bard. you can obviously. youd undoubtedly kill about 9/10 mages you fight but it isnt enough to make you choose a magekiller when youd lose to 90% of the game.

slayers can die, the odds of hitting are technically in no melee attackers favor. it wasnt about them dieing really. it was about the success rate on popping off 2 backstabs or 3 in a row is significantly higher than other classes hitting 6-7x in a row to put out the same caliber of damage. i do believe they should do higher damage than the others, i also realize that when they do whiff it hurts a bit more to them than other classes.

its just about the overview of it all,
- party of 6 wandering gy, slayer sees a nub in party...yay. has a lil more than 16%+ variance chance to kill it automatically. then to top it off the other 5 cant even kill the slayer they have to run or all die aswell unless its 3+ mages....
-1100 hp or less level 25 walking around killing raiders pop pop 16% death no way to defend it. the slayer has a 0.4% chance to die to this melee character and thats saying the melee character hits 200*6 and the slayer doesnt leave if it misses. so whats the real odds? a big 0

the game is slayerville and noone can deny it. and here i thought this wasnt rok.
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:52 am

Terron wrote:its just about the overview of it all,
- party of 6 wandering gy, slayer sees a nub in party...yay. has a lil more than 16%+ variance chance to kill it automatically. then to top it off the other 5 cant even kill the slayer they have to run or all die aswell unless its 3+ mages....
-1100 hp or less level 25 walking around killing raiders pop pop 16% death no way to defend it. the slayer has a 0.4% chance to die to this melee character and thats saying the melee character hits 200*6 and the slayer doesnt leave if it misses. so whats the real odds? a big 0

the game is slayerville and noone can deny it. and here i thought this wasnt rok.


See this is where i disagree with you - and without actual hard stats, we will go back in circles because no one can prove to be right:
- Attacking a party of 6 lvl 16s that might happen. But i personally never did that and lived. At best, I once killed 3 levelers, but crucially - they stayed and fought. At lvl 20+... its rarely happens I land 2bs on anyone. Way less than 16% - again one has to account AC, AGI, etc.
- I beg to differ - I've tried 3 times to kill Preston at raiders (for example), and three times have i died. 1vs1, with or without pots, i just dont find it convincing that slayers are OP - and im fairly well equipped on mine.

Furthermore, one thing is delivering 2bs in a row, another is inflicting damage - at 40% hit change, what are the odds I "wont" do damage? They are higher for a slayer than for a Ninja for sure.


I do get your point about the damage potential of enchanters - i'd actually focus on getting Necromancers to be the "magic damage" type class, but that is a separate discussion.
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:27 am

yes the 16% would be affected by ac, shield blocks, armor blocks, etc. but other classes deal with these 3 atleast 2x as often as backstab because its per attack. so any adjustment factor for slayer is twice as detrimental to a cav for example. if the 16% is amended to 10% via ac/shields etc. than the other melees range is lowered to almost impossibility.

slayers have a 50% greater chance to null a whole round. which is why they do die 1v1, which im not denying. if you stay for extra rounds. imho a slayer only dies if they want to.

personally i think ninja has more merit and magnitude to the whole game. however it is an extremely high rate of success for slayers regardless. it just furthers the imbalance of race because you dont want gnomes/lings because chances are a saurian/horc slayer kills you in 2 hits.

having said this, i dont want slayers nerfed or anything(they could use less survivability tho), unless its a temporary thing. because this is all the class has. i am just hoping for some competition for them before the game is all slayers and its already close.
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:34 am

Terron wrote: "snipp"


There would be an easy way to do this - take out the slayer double hide (the new mechanic) thus making them useless for OADs.

Not sure if suggesting this would make you popular, though :P
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:50 am

all classes of any race should be useable at oads otherwise there is ultimately no reason to level many characters. level a cleric if you can do that, level an oad crit, level your RP character, level a pker done.

i would rather suggest making brigand an actual choice for pvp.

give brigand a large dodge bonus 5 - 10%, and a decent mr bonus 2.5 - 5%. that comboed with their smaller bs and ability to use bows and crit arrows could make them viable enough. aswell as keeping the medium armor.

slayers would downgrade 1 armor type and have a small penalty to hps (-4%) and lose shields.

then u have a smaller damage survivable backstab class and one that is a fanatical damage type.
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Ardrahz
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Ardrahz » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:00 pm

Both would be a bit much on brigand. My dark elf brig already does decent stabs and dodges well enough. to give him extra dodge AND mr i feel would make him far too good.
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Terron
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:21 pm

might be, still wont be a slayer. i still think thief should have a small mr and bonus dodge 5% to each atleast. monks have both and pretty high. not saying brigand buff wouldn't end up too much if it was 10%. it would have to be high enough to make a difference. however if youre saying your brigand is "plenty good" what does that make a slayer? too good?..

thief isnt a combatant by nature so the dodge can be reflected as a major avoidance such as diving or rolling out of the way. monks have dodge but i think it reflects their ability to deflect attacks or absorb them by making them glance off. ive been in martial arts for a long time "dodging" leaves you open. you can only roll your head back to avoid a cross so often before you get kicked in the teeth. just sayin.

the mr would reflect the thieves goal...robbing wizard towers of their magical items. that is the major aim of all thieves...the big score that earns retirement.

no matter what values the brigand would receive, it does bring the game more inline as some people would start using brigands a little more and slayers take a little hit to survival. might give some lings/gnomes some love when they dont die in 2 hits. lol
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this game is like sim ant
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:29 pm

In terms of the half orc str, simply modifying how STR works would probably be a better idea. Not by much, but lowering their STR makes them pretty nil. Everyone would get the hit IMO, but you'd reduce the chance of two hits by a little, (not by much.)

In terms of hit rate. 50% greater chance to null is 'technically' incorrect. If your dodge rate is 50%, just because you only have two attacks doesn't mean your overall hit rate goes down. I get where you are coming from but you're still hitting 50% of the time with only two attacks vs four attacks, but your still doing 4x damage.

Brigs will have traps and other things, though possibility of other little perks too vs slayers they aren't terrible IMO, they just need some more things, but rome wasn't built in a day. Thieves will be useful in the future, you can bet yourself on that, specially for guild wars and some other things.

Maybe the biggest problem is the 10% bonus they get from dual wielding which honestly is a pretty high bonus when it comes to backstabbing. Or maybe the delay per hide isn't enough. Maybe slayers need a small dodge reduction. Should have a slayer discussion somewhere else though.

A lot of things can probably be adjusted with formula adjustments for the racial changes based on statements and how everything should work, taking it slowly though.


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