Race Stat Changes

[anthriel]

P.S. Put both proposes here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

There's also a possibility of if you remove the max end you could bump all END by lets say 10-30HP too with the above.

Not a great fan of either proposal tbh and think both are worse than your original one. If you implemented either of these I think you would have to offer free race changes as part of respec or ppl r gonna feel ripped off. Here are some quick reasons why off the top of my head:

1. Raising Ling End while either leaving Elf End the same largely disrupts the currently fair Elf vs Ling choice for Bards/Rangers and possibly Pallys too (It is currently an End vs Agi tradeoff that your proposals would shift in favour of Lings)
2. I don't think either proposal actually fixes gnomes.... Giving them +1 Agi helps a little bit for their survival (but not nearly as much as +1 End would) and +1 INT is nice to have but almost useless for overall playability (cos u can still die easily b4 using it leaving your party majorly disadvantaged). I do feel they actually need the +1 End to be more viable. You quote stats that majority of chanters are gnome but I reckon a lot of those are chars created when ppl were newer to EO still having perceptions of Rok... I think most with gnome chanter now prolly would do Ele or Elf given their time again (I certainly would - having now gotten more experience play testing EO and realising the importance of HP in group fights and OAD parties)...Most newer chanters/sorcs i see being made by veteran players are not gnomes methinks.
3.Horcs hit little enough as it is and will do so even less post Agi update... They are fine as is and nerfing their strength is not needed.

As a side note in response to your previous post quoting race % breakdowns of current 25er classes, I would caution against reading too much into this info as it is likely inaccurate to identifying actual trends of which races are best for a class.... This is cos a lot of ppl make their first few 25ers of races/class combos they think we're good in Rok (eg ling guard, gnome chant, human/helf elder, goblin slayer etc) and then realise later in the end-game that these builds are total duds in the current EO and shelve em.... This is actually really common occurrence for 1st/2nd chars and is a discouragement for lots of newbs (some of which I know have stopped playing instead of bothering to persevere making yet another char of same class they originally wanted, just to be competitive)....which is why I have previously suggested that it would be very helpful to introduce some in-game way to change race as part of realloc process to take away some of this strain on balancing races perfectly etc.

[NiteHawk]

1. Raising Ling End while either leaving Elf End the same largely disrupts the currently fair Elf vs Ling choice for Bards/Rangers and possibly Pallys too (It is currently an End vs Agi tradeoff that your proposals would shift in favour of Lings)
2. I don't think either proposal actually fixes gnomes.... Giving them +1 Agi helps a little bit for their survival (but not nearly as much as +1 End would) and +1 INT is nice to have but almost useless for overall playability (cos u can still die easily b4 using it leaving your party majorly disadvantaged). I do feel they actually need the +1 End to be more viable. You quote stats that majority of chanters are gnome but I reckon a lot of those are chars created when ppl were newer to EO still having perceptions of Rok... I think most with gnome chanter now prolly would do Ele or Elf given their time again (I certainly would - having now gotten more experience play testing EO and realising the importance of HP in group fights and OAD parties)...Most newer chanters/sorcs i see being made by veteran players are not gnomes methinks.
3.Horcs hit little enough as it is and will do so even less post Agi update... They are fine as is and nerfing their strength is not needed.

1. If we base it off this
Halfling 18 23 18 20 20 22
Elf 18 22 18 22 21 22
I see a use for both in different scenarios, which i think is fine.

1b./2. Issue right now is if you add END to gnomes, you have to add it to elf to compensate. But then you gotta also add end to all the other races like HE, Human, etc too to compensate because there's a bit of issue with it. My intentions are not to give everyone an END boost. Survivability is an issue sure, but I was intending on going the other way by setting the max end to 22 and then changing it so its similar to 18-23 end (aka 17 to 22 end). But that's still up in the air.

Halfling 18 23 17 20 20 22
Elf 18 22 18 21 21 22

Back on this, that's the current stats. With one end, more wis/int, and one less agi, to me elves shadow lings. Giving both END, it results in the exact same thing really/issue as we have now where (to me) elves are better in most ways. Nothing is set on stone yet though obviously, still looking into trial and error on stuff.


3. Yeah I am not sure about the HO thing as well, just was making facts about damage though and issues it brings up in the previous post. 25 str is fairly high, still a problem regardless as no other race really does this.

As a side note in response to your previous post quoting race % breakdowns of current 25er classes, I would caution against reading too much into this info as it is likely inaccurate to identifying actual trends of which races are best for a class.... This is cos a lot of ppl make their first few 25ers of races/class combos they think we're good in Rok (eg ling guard, gnome chant, human/helf elder, goblin slayer etc) and then realise later in the end-game that these builds are total duds in the current EO and shelve em.... This is actually really common occurrence for 1st/2nd chars and is a discouragement for lots of newbs (some of which I know have stopped playing instead of bothering to persevere making yet another char of same class they originally wanted, just to be competitive)....which is why I have previously suggested that it would be very helpful to introduce some in-game way to change race as part of realloc process to take away some of this strain on balancing races perfectly etc.

Alot of people on discord apparently disagreed with the notion that gnomes are not used. Would like people to actually post bout it though too. So I'm just stating it. I'm also stating that at least half of those gnomes aren't so old either. I'm not staying you are wrong about how enchanters work though, just stating info I've seen.

You won't be able to change race ever, balance is part of the game. If people are upset it's a shame, but it is what it is. We'll have to get new people in place of that. We haven't really been advertising and probably won't be until we're more settled.

+++


Edit: There's a third proposal up thats similar to the first to show the example of what I mean. The issue is HE/Humans etc get a boost too and I don't think they need a END boost. But without it, elves/etc are higher. But I think it might be too much and bringing them too close to physical based races.

[Lavelia]

I don't overly mind the changes to Gnomes, I guess. I mean, they're the smallest race. Even smaller than lings, so it made sense that they'd have the lowest hp out of all of the races. But they're also magical creatures, meant to be the ones that stand behind the lines, protected by the stronger, larger races, while keeping everyone else alive or slamming the enemies with massive magical damage. I don't really see Gnomes as glass cannons. I see them as having to be played strategically. While I'm not a huge fan of an End boost, I don't mind the Int boost because that means those lil Gnomes become even better magical battlers.

As for the rest of the races:

Elves are decent but I do prefer Gnomes over them for Caster types. However I prefer Elves over other races when making Rangers. I'm not really certain they need adjusting but if you're adjusting Gnomes then these would probably have to be adjusted otherwise they wouldn't stand out as a worthwhile race to play.

Dark Elves I have one. I don't play her much at all. I think it's not a very good/great race compared to others and I'm still wishing I'd made my Necro Gnome instead. She's okay but I think if she were a different race she could be much better. Dark Elves definitely need something. It's not that they suck but they feel as though they're overshadowed by every other race. I'd kind of like to see them get a boost to damage at night or something, in all honesty. I mean, they're Dark Elves. Dark. Elves. They need something so that they become a viable race to play for more than just a novelty of 'lets try DE's as x and see how it goes' kind of thing.

Half Elves are a mixed race and as such should reflect both races with regards to stats. I can't say they're amazing but they're not bad overall.

Humans are, as they always are, that middle ground of not great and yet not terrible. A 'Jack of All Trades and Master of None' type of class imo. I typically don't play humans because there are better races that can do the job. Though I would make one for, say, RP purposes.

Goblins. I LOVE my Gobby Ninja. Goblins are a fun race and instead of putting a +1 to agi I went and gave her more Wis to counter magey types. She's great and I love her. Not sure how I feel about proposed changes to her race, tbh lol. I kind of like Gobbies as they are now

Half Orcs are....well. They should be kind of dumb. But if you reduce Wis too much you'll make them glass cannons when it comes to battling magey types, whether it's PvP or PvE and then I'm not sure if players would really bother with them, given how much they miss. And, let me tell ya. They miss. A lot. lol

Saurians are not too bad. My Barb is one and she does just fine PvE (which is my main game-play style). I don't really feel that she needs anything to make her better, stat wise. She hits well, dodges well, and is a good all around battle type race.

Drakeblood I can't say much on since I only just made one and haven't played her yet. I made her a ranger. We'll see how she does against magey types since she's got the base 10 wis lol. Could be good, could be bad. We'll see

Anyways, I probably didn't give too much useful information but there's my assessment anyways.

[NiteHawk]

Half Orcs are....well. They should be kind of dumb. But if you reduce Wis too much you'll make them glass cannons when it comes to battling magey types, whether it's PvP or PvE and then I'm not sure if players would really bother with them, given how much they miss. And, let me tell ya. They miss. A lot. lol

They are supposed to be. It's the reason on being good against spells but heavy HP/Str and being a magic. Otherwise theres 0 point in using magic classes if all races were immune to it. Pick one of the mid races with good MR and moderate strength/hp otherwise.

Goblins.Not sure how I feel about proposed changes to her race, tbh lol. I kind of like Gobbies as they are now

Yeah nerfs hurt, everyone rages over them but for the sake of balance things do need to change here and there. 5% loss to MR bonus isn't that much loss though. cause it's not a full 5%, its 5% based on your Wis. You lose a couple percent which still puts them as the goto if you don't max out wis, which you often rarely do. Even 10% instead of 15% is about 41% hit rate with magic which might be OK too, tbh. They still get a 10 damage reduction on any spells though.

This is how it looks like now:

DE: (give or take a half a percent either way on some randomness chance)
15 Wis: 51% hit rate.
16 wis: 48% hit rate.
17 wis: 45% hit rate.
18 wis 42% hit rate.
19 wis: 39% hit rate.
20 wis: 36% hit rate.

Goblin with 15%:
14 wis: 49% hit rate.
15 wis: 45% hit rate
16 wis: 42% hit rate.
17 wis: 38% hit rate.

Goblin with 10%:
14 wis: 52% hit rate.
15 wis: 48% hit rate
16 wis: 44% hit rate.
17 wis: 41% hit rate.


I feel like 15% is OK though, but just throwing these values for people to comment on it.

[JadeFalcon]

I'll probably get a /pat for this, but I agree with Lavelia.
If anything needs changing in gnomes (which i doubt, as i believe, without hard facts though, that they are widely played), then giving them +1int makes more sense in the grand scheme of things. RP and tactically wise.
As lavelia said, sure they will still be frail, but they are supposed to be like that, it will be their tradeoff. Hell, get a Guardian in front of the gnome, they are there for that.

[Styx]

If we do a restat, then all char would need to be changed so the 25 str horc can be reset

[anthriel]

You won't be able to change race ever, balance is part of the game. If people are upset it's a shame, but it is what it is. We'll have to get new people in place of that. We haven't really been advertising and probably won't be until we're more settled.

I'm not sure why you would adopt such a stance re never allowing race changes, especially in the case of allowing some end-game way for new players to correct character creation mistakes made when they were new (perhaps you have good reasons you havent explained) ... In any case I wanted to give you feedback that the perceived attitude behind your above comment seems discouraging. I've been suggesting all along that EO's issue isnt as much "player attraction through advertising" as it is "player retention through game dynamics" (which you largely have more control over than advertising). But basically it seems to me like you are saying you dont give a damn about retaining players, you just care about replacing them with new ones (who may then quit anyway later)....which seems rather short sighted for a game developer and doesnt really inspire me to go grind out some more 25ers or interact with new players who are likely part of a revolving door.

Also, the forums and discord are not exactly representative of the entire community who play your game. The large majority of players active on forums and EO discord tavern seem to me to be from 1 guild. The large majority of active staff (at the time of this post) appear to be from 1 guild. Many of these players seem to be from an "in-crowd" community of close-knit Rok alumni. I suspect therefore the large majority of your interactions/surveys of "player opinion" come from a particular sub-community of players within the larger community (and you appear to give the suggestions of these players more weight/consideration). I have tried to be a voice that thinks outside this box to help EO with fresh/different ideas, but i tire of what seems to usually be a fruitless/unwanted task.... And your above "i dont really care if ppl quit" sentiments make me feel that although you have created a game that is a big improvement over Rok, it still has Rok's unhelpful feel of a game that is designed largely to cater for the gratification of the "in-crowd"/staff rather than for the gratification of the entire playerbase.

Good luck with the advertising campaign. Good luck with player retention. I may log in occasionally to interact with the community of friends made in EO, but the gameplay doesnt really interest me much anymore and (now) neither does trying to help it improve by suggesting ideas or critical feedback.

Sorry for the aside from the main topic (its likely the last time i bother) - Peace all

[Lateralus]

I can see how some people would be upset that their races got nerfed or other races got buffed but I agree balancing is part of the game.

I mean as we go through the classes for the most part they are getting buffed and we are not allowing class changes.

That said I kinda think it it would be a good idea to keep the race changes minimal if possible.

Less we change less people have to be upset about.

I think maybe tossing halfling +agi and gnome an +int buffs them and keeps the races unique.

Maybe tossing a pool point or two on dark elves.

Orcs are great slayers, cavs but with agi change they will lose a bit of power. I can see the 12 wis but think they should keep str.

Dwarfs are in the same boat although idk why they should get the -10 spell reduction they already have 20wis and 23end which makes them impossible for casters so I say rid that.

Maybe give human and half elf ability for +2 but at a cost.


That's my take imo. I really don't think things are too far off. After thinking about it the last few days and looking at people's arguments I think it makes sense.

[Eld]

You won't be able to change race ever, balance is part of the game. If people are upset it's a shame, but it is what it is. We'll have to get new people in place of that. We haven't really been advertising and probably won't be until we're more settled.

I'm not sure why you would adopt such a stance re never allowing race changes, especially in the case of allowing some end-game way for new players to correct character creation mistakes made when they were new (perhaps you have good reasons you havent explained) ... In any case I wanted to give you feedback that the perceived attitude behind your above comment seems discouraging. I've been suggesting all along that EO's issue isnt as much "player attraction through advertising" as it is "player retention through game dynamics" (which you largely have more control over than advertising). But basically it seems to me like you are saying you dont give a damn about retaining players, you just care about replacing them with new ones (who may then quit anyway later)....which seems rather short sighted for a game developer and doesnt really inspire me to go grind out some more 25ers or interact with new players who are likely part of a revolving door.

Also, the forums and discord are not exactly representative of the entire community who play your game. The large majority of players active on forums and EO discord tavern seem to me to be from 1 guild. The large majority of active staff (at the time of this post) appear to be from 1 guild. Many of these players seem to be from an "in-crowd" community of close-knit Rok alumni. I suspect therefore the large majority of your interactions/surveys of "player opinion" come from a particular sub-community of players within the larger community (and you appear to give the suggestions of these players more weight/consideration). I have tried to be a voice that thinks outside this box to help EO with fresh/different ideas, but i tire of what seems to usually be a fruitless/unwanted task.... And your above "i dont really care if ppl quit" sentiments make me feel that although you have created a game that is a big improvement over Rok, it still has Rok's unhelpful feel of a game that is designed largely to cater for the gratification of the "in-crowd"/staff rather than for the gratification of the entire playerbase.

Good luck with the advertising campaign. Good luck with player retention. I may log in occasionally to interact with the community of friends made in EO, but the gameplay doesnt really interest me much anymore and (now) neither does trying to help it improve by suggesting ideas or critical feedback.

Sorry for the aside from the main topic (its likely the last time i bother) - Peace all

In the past I've argued for allowing race changes, but i can see why Nitehawk has said it's off the table.
You risk everyone having the same cookie cutter style characters.

I think it's a noble aim to try and get the races balanced so there's several worthwhile choices for classes, rather than risking every character being the same combination.

I do agree there's lots of people who make mistakes with their early alts (myself included) and it's very discouraging to have the feeling of having wasted several weeks levelling and equipping a character you don't like, especially if it ties up a name you want to keep.
I still complain about my shitty dwarf slayer to this day, but i have no desire to level a replacement.

I've argued for a while we need more help on the roller for people, including a "suggested stats" option, or maybe even a warning if someone tries to create a character of an unusual combination, or fails to use all their allocation points.

Guilds also need to help out newbies by giving them advice before they invest a lot of time into an alt.



Secondly, I really hope you continue to contribute Anthriel, I actually really enjoy reading your input. Even if i sometimes disagree with you, what you say is usually well thought out and provokes a good discussion about game mechanics and the direction of the game. If anything I wish you'd apply to staff as I think you'd potentially be a really good addition.

Thirdly, I can see what you're saying about a lot of the discussion on discord/forums comes from Silhouette members, but discord/the forums are open to everyone to contribute ideas.
If Nitehawk wants feedback on potential changes then where else can he get it other than asking on the forums and on discord? I believe he also broadcasted a link to the forum page. If other guilds don't contribute to the discussion then how is that his/our fault? :/

We're also not making suggestions based on benefiting us, we're trying to make suggestions to improve the game.
For instance I recommended nerfing dwarf End and 2 of my characters are dwarves (including my main DPS alt, and the character I'm levelling right now).
I recommended nerfing orc str despite there being several orc mains in my guild and despite me really wanting an orc slayer.
I also have a history of recommending things (that have been implemented) that are bad for my guild.
I've also recommended several things that i knew would severely piss off some of my guild members (lol obscuration potions).

It's in everyone's interests for the game to be improved and for the general game experience to be enjoyable for everyone.
Applications to join staff are still open, if anyone wants to give up their own time in order to help the game then please make a serious application to staff.

Lastly, it's often a detriment rather than a benefit to a guild to have staff members for the following reasons:
-If you're involved in the testing/building of an OAD area you can't run it for a certain period after it launches
-If you're event staff then your guild has one less person (i.e. you) for any event you run.
-If you become warden then you have to cut ties from your clan
-You have less time to play the game because you have to contribute on the staff side of things
-Any loop holes you see a guild member mention (lumbering bears giving high xp, certain monsters giving too much gold, etc.) you have a duty to mention/get fixed

Being staff really doesn't benefit your normal guild in any way, I can honestly say at no point has my staff status had any benefit to Silhouette whatsoever and in fact it's harmed the guild a lot more than it's helped.

Honestly, Silhouette has lost more good members to Staff than any other guild, but it's been for the betterment of the game.

[JadeFalcon]

(i'd add to what Eld wrote that just because many of us might come from the same clan, that does not mean we agree on everything - and we dont)