Race Stat Changes

Terron
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:06 pm

it is not technically incorrect run the math they have half the attack attempts and the hit rate stays the same. run the sim with 1000 attacks (22 agi vs 22 agi) see how often the slayer does 0 damage and how many times a bard hits atleast 1 out of 4. it will be a 50% greater whiff amount for the slayer. (as in 150% of 10 is 15 etc not a flat 50%.)
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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:41 pm

Jade wrote:Furthermore, one thing is delivering 2bs in a row, another is inflicting damage - at 40% hit change, what are the odds I "wont" do damage? They are higher for a slayer than for a Ninja for sure.


Terron wrote:it is not technically incorrect run the math they have half the attack attempts and the hit rate stays the same. run the sim with 1000 attacks (22 agi vs 22 agi) see how often the slayer does 0 damage and how many times a bard hits atleast 1 out of 4. it will be a 50% greater whiff amount for the slayer. (as in 150% of 10 is 15 etc not a flat 50%.)


Well yeah I get that bit but I still don't see it being valid fully because one hit of a slayer is more then double. Obviously in 1000 attacks with 40% base your looking at 400 out of 1000 attacks hitting, but for slayers it would be 200 out of 1000 attacks, but obviously because 500 of them are hiding. However since they deal 4x damage I'd rather be the one dealing half the hits but 4x the damage (though basing it off dagger damage which is a little lower on the base.) Of course this means they will have rounds where they fully miss 'more' but that doesn't mean they lose less fights because of it. Their multiplier makes up way more for it. It would like be saying that having a class that only has 10% HR but hits for 2k damage. Yeah he'd have several rounds he'd miss, but his damage makes up for it and in most cases he'll win.

I don't disagree that other classes couldn't get bonuses though.


Ardrahz wrote:Both would be a bit much on brigand. My dark elf brig already does decent stabs and dodges well enough. to give him extra dodge AND mr i feel would make him far too good.


Brigs don't really have a dodge bonus so your basing it's dodge with no bonuses.

Terron
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:36 pm

yeah nh thats what i was saying before. they get basically a huge advantage with metaphoric 3-4 hits for the price of 1, even at half attacks. they dont have to roll 4 successful attack rolls for 500-600 damage like a bard/cav etc would. JF was using the fail rate as an influential saying the complete round failure rate more than makes up for it. in certain situations yeah, it probably does, in others theres no way. the fail rate for a single round is 36% (0 hits).

that wasnt my issue at all. my issue was with just the 16% chance to land both w/o real repercussions. JF says he doesnt really attack mages but in reality he can try to kill them for free and if he fails, and mage stays around, he can just drink a potion and leave(mage cant round him). if you are on a slayer and take the gamble and stick around that's a choice not a statistic. 16% isnt overly great odds to stick around after you start getting blasted.

in the situation half hits on a slayer is a benefit 1 attack roll for 4x damage vs 4 attack rolls for similar output. this isnt supposed to be turning into a nerf slayer rant, id just like some reasonable competition. slayers may wiff 36% of rounds but what can round them in 4 stamina? nothing. so its always a free chance.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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daedroth
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby daedroth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:40 am

You keep forgetting about time delay for a slayer. Each round a slayer loses a SLIGHT amount of time. Slayer needs to move, victim can just stand there and spam (or run).
Also, as I have said before, they SHOULD have the best potential for rounding/quick killing, the hint is in the class name.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:41 am

Terron wrote:yeah nh thats what i was saying before. they get basically a huge advantage with metaphoric 3-4 hits for the price of 1, even at half attacks. they dont have to roll 4 successful attack rolls for 500-600 damage like a bard/cav etc would. JF was using the fail rate as an influential saying the complete round failure rate more than makes up for it. in certain situations yeah, it probably does, in others theres no way. the fail rate for a single round is 36% (0 hits).

that wasnt my issue at all. my issue was with just the 16% chance to land both w/o real repercussions. JF says he doesnt really attack mages but in reality he can try to kill them for free and if he fails, and mage stays around, he can just drink a potion and leave(mage cant round him). if you are on a slayer and take the gamble and stick around that's a choice not a statistic. 16% isnt overly great odds to stick around after you start getting blasted.

in the situation half hits on a slayer is a benefit 1 attack roll for 4x damage vs 4 attack rolls for similar output. this isnt supposed to be turning into a nerf slayer rant, id just like some reasonable competition. slayers may wiff 36% of rounds but what can round them in 4 stamina? nothing. so its always a free chance.


I think mages still have a good upper hand against them though, even if they manage to get in a pot or two, 3-4 hits on a saurian I would assume is between 550-720 damage easily they'd have to deal with. Of course the slayer will get chances to actually beat the mage, but I think in most scenarios it's not the case. Mages can also easily reduce damage with sap (-160 to -176 damage to backstabs) which would prevent double tapping.

But yeah that is true, slayers 'normally' do have a chance to round. I do agree with you that slayers do get a pretty heavy amount of damage 'potential' in one round. Things like duel wielding giving a damage bonus obviously had stronger effects than they really should. I still do think they should be the leaders in damage, and deal higher damage than normal, but even without that 10% they would for example.

They don't have many 'negatives' right now in terms of how they work. Maybe DW'ing needs another looking at, maybe slayers need less HP, maybe the damage is actually okay but succession backstabs in the same round should have a slightly less chance of hitting two in a row. NOT saying this is what is going to happen guises, I'm just throwing out ideas. I do think that they are a bit overpowered though. Of course they are going to lose from time to time. That's what happens in a random chance game sometimes, that's how it goes.

Slayers should probably be discussed elsewhere though, though I intend on bringing up all classes and seeing what we can do for slight improvements in the nearish future.

Again, I still want slayers being as they pretty much are now, heavy hitters and good ambushers, that's what makes them unique. There are probably other ways to balance how classes work too.

I probably need to make a good system that gives statistics throughout the day before I actually do things like this though. Things like who did the killing, who died, average damage per race/class, blahblah. Proper statistics would help alot though it's a good task to do on it's own.

Terron
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Terron » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:36 am

the initial round is all that matters imo. the slayer can attempt pk and run their ass off if they want, 0 chance of death. i think it sucks because atm they have no competition at all. no class will have the upperhand unless a slayer user decides to stick around. "assassins" have technical flaws in almost every game. mostly because they take the finesse aspect away so clumsy drooling half orcs can somehow hide in plain sight and make no sound in chainmail... but most problems become apparent especially if they are the only class available to round someone. same could be said about any class that would 4/4 16% of the time (22 agi vs 10 agi would be 16.7%)


anyhow, whats up with proposal 19? was it victorious or not?
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm

Terron wrote:the initial round is all that matters imo. the slayer can attempt pk and run their ass off if they want, 0 chance of death. i think it sucks because atm they have no competition at all. no class will have the upperhand unless a slayer user decides to stick around. "assassins" have technical flaws in almost every game. mostly because they take the finesse aspect away so clumsy drooling half orcs can somehow hide in plain sight and make no sound in chainmail... but most problems become apparent especially if they are the only class available to round someone. same could be said about any class that would 4/4 16% of the time (22 agi vs 10 agi would be 16.7%)


anyhow, whats up with proposal 19? was it victorious or not?


I think removing hp maybe 5-15% would be great for balancing. Would make agi more important and give casters a bit more upper hand on them.


Agree here but should prob just get those race changes in asap then take a look at assassins and other classes. I'm assuming we are going with 19 too?

anthriel
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby anthriel » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:16 pm

Terron wrote:the initial round is all that matters imo. the slayer can attempt pk and run their ass off if they want, 0 chance of death. i think it sucks because atm they have no competition at all. no class will have the upperhand unless a slayer user decides to stick around. "assassins" have technical flaws in almost every game. mostly because they take the finesse aspect away so clumsy drooling half orcs can somehow hide in plain sight and make no sound in chainmail... but most problems become apparent especially if they are the only class available to round someone. same could be said about any class that would 4/4 16% of the time (22 agi vs 10 agi would be 16.7%)


anyhow, whats up with proposal 19? was it victorious or not?


I haven't done much of the math like him but I generally have to agree with Terron's insights re slayer burst damage making them decent even against natural enemies (eg mages) and the tactical choice to run away and/or hide if they fail meaning most enemies simply can't easily catch an opportunistic slayer that wants to hit and run (getting free attempts to pk/round with little risk to themselves).

Some possible solutions would be:
1. Introduce a magical burst damage spell of some kind (I like this idea cos it helps low HP mages be more viable in group fights)
2. Penalise failed backstab abit more (eg immediate exhaust like failed steals on thief or increased cooldown for rehiding etc).... Not sure how this would work
3. Reduce slayer survivability via formulas (tho they prolly still can run/hide well so not sure how effective this is)
4. Reduce slayer damage output somehow (don't like this one entirely myself, I'd rather have other classes find ways to find/catch/kill them better if they do want to fight back)
5. Scale backstab hitrate proportionately to agility... Ie if they have 4x damage then make agility 4x as important for landing backstab??

In any case I also agree we should implement the best decided race changes and then deal with the class balancing issues ppl have raised (eg horc slayers, Ele Druids, brigands etc) as next step.

Dan
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Dan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:36 pm

I haven't done much of the math like him but I generally have to agree with Terron's insights re slayer burst damage making them decent even against natural enemies (eg mages) and the tactical choice to run away and/or hide if they fail meaning most enemies simply can't easily catch an opportunistic slayer that wants to hit and run (getting free attempts to pk/round with little risk to themselves).

Some possible solutions would be:
1. Introduce a magical burst damage spell of some kind (I like this idea cos it helps low HP mages be more viable in group fights)
2. Penalise failed backstab abit more (eg immediate exhaust like failed steals on thief or increased cooldown for rehiding etc).... Not sure how this would work
3. Reduce slayer survivability via formulas (tho they prolly still can run/hide well so not sure how effective this is)
4. Reduce slayer damage output somehow (don't like this one entirely myself, I'd rather have other classes find ways to find/catch/kill them better if they do want to fight back)
5. Scale backstab hitrate proportionately to agility... Ie if they have 4x damage then make agility 4x as important for landing backstab??

In any case I also agree we should implement the best decided race changes and then deal with the class balancing issues ppl have raised (eg horc slayers, Ele Druids, brigands etc) as next step.



That idea is similar to mine, but instead of BS scaling with agi, i think it should scale with current stam, like 1 stam = 70%, 2 stam = 80%, 3 stam = 90%, 4 stam = 100% of current BS damage.

Every sucessfull BS should make them exhausted, and missing BS should consume only 1 stam point.

That way they will still able to do what they do, try again for lesser damage if they miss, what makes sense since the target is now aware of his presence, or choose to run for a better later opportunity.

But now with risks that may be more fair trade off with their power.

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Lateralus
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Re: Race Stat Changes

Postby Lateralus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:46 am

Guys feel free to make a slayer or whatever class suggestion tread and move stuff over there but lets keep this to race if possible. Creeping up on a month now with races in limbo we got enough to figure out with just races atm.


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