Assassin Dual Wield Bonus

[FrostSlayer]

I agree, but the main point I was making was the large difference between min and max backstabs. If the minimum damage of daggers was a little higher, I think overall it would remedy this. A difference between 70-120 basic attack becomes 210- 480 with a backstab...

[FrostSlayer]

Or even allow str to affect max damage and agI to affect min damage for assassins. That way you can build it any way you like.

[NiteHawk]

So, to hit for that very nice amount, I need to:

A) land my backstab
B) roll a high or max basic attack
C) roll the max multiplier

I could just as easily roll the min attack and multiplier and have it do laughable damage.

The damage seems very inconsistent. Is the range on backstab intended to be all over the place? The odds of landing (not missing) 2 max roll backstabs in a row seems very unlikely. A zerker would probably have a better chance of landing 4 attacks in row than a slayer doing the above.

Any thoughts?

Just want to point out, you are incorrect with C). The multiplier is always maxed. It's always 4x or 4x with 10% damage (about 4.5x) The multipler on thieves is a set 3x and for assassins its either 4x or about 4.5x.

For A), that isn't really a valid point. Landing hits if you have to hide vs not make no difference in your overall average hit rate because of the damage multiplier in the end negates and goes above it. It might feel like it, but attacking twice for 4x damage and attacking four times with 1x damage in the end means the 4x user will deal more damage in total.

I also disagree with zerkers.. Zerkers have a very hard time getting into rage due to class loss of AGI which I believe is around 1 or 2 agi.. Might have to look at how rage works in the future. Rage also requires constant hits to continue, and typically that doesn't happen in PVP.

You are not going to deal that sweet spot damage right now either until OAD weapons come out either. 8)

The only real factor would be the daggers themselves. They might have too high of a offset at lower levels, (I.E. the min/max damage could be too high at lower levels. The min/max is meant to spread out larger and larger as levels come out.). Something we might have to take a look at.

I would also say if you haven't at least brighted and blessed your item, you need to do this. For assassins, it makes a larger impact than any other class.

I was incorrect with the values but this is what I see with the OAD Weapon, level 25, 22 str, brilled (which sorcs can do), and decked. On div.
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 116-159
Backstab 1 weapon: 464-636
Backstab 2 weapons: 510-699

Same as above, but 24 STR:
Min/Max Normal: 126-174
Backstab 1 weapon: 504-696
Backstab 2 weapons: 554-765

----

Now lets get into leveling mode. Let us take a Bone dagger. Level 21 assassin, 22 str, no bless or enchantments. ON div
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 56-91
Backstab 1 weapon: 224-364
Backstab 2 weapons: 246-400

And then lets take the same as above, but decked:
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 78-114
Backstab 1 weapon: 312-456
Backstab 2 weapons: 343-502



To me, the above variance seems OK. You can claim that the 224-364 damage is low if you don't deck it, and that is true, but you CANNOT base this off weapons that are decked. Lets take an example here.

We will use a knight, so pretty high str bonus per point. Same as above, Level 21, 22 str, no bless or enchantments, on div. We will use a BLOOD SABRE, which is a decent weapon in game.
Min/Max Normal: 94-137

Decked Blood Sabre:
Min/Max Normal: 126-170


You can't compare an undecked weapon to decked in any case though. When comparing damage values with swords, daggers, etc. The assassin to me comes up in front with weapons of the same values. You also cannot compare min dagger to max sword. You should compare min to min, max to max.

Hope this gives some insight. I don't mind the idears and such though, I don't think they are by means any way bad.

[FrostSlayer]

So, to hit for that very nice amount, I need to:

A) land my backstab
B) roll a high or max basic attack
C) roll the max multiplier

I could just as easily roll the min attack and multiplier and have it do laughable damage.

The damage seems very inconsistent. Is the range on backstab intended to be all over the place? The odds of landing (not missing) 2 max roll backstabs in a row seems very unlikely. A zerker would probably have a better chance of landing 4 attacks in row than a slayer doing the above.

Any thoughts?

Just want to point out, you are incorrect with C). The multiplier is always maxed. It's always 4x or 4x with 10% damage (about 4.5x) The multipler on thieves is a set 3x and for assassins its either 4x or about 4.5x.

For A), that isn't really a valid point. Landing hits if you have to hide vs not make no difference in your overall average hit rate because of the damage multiplier in the end negates and goes above it. It might feel like it, but attacking twice for 4x damage and attacking four times with 1x damage in the end means the 4x user will deal more damage in total.

I also disagree with zerkers.. Zerkers have a very hard time getting into rage due to class loss of AGI which I believe is around 1 or 2 agi.. Might have to look at how rage works in the future. Rage also requires constant hits to continue, and typically that doesn't happen in PVP.

You are not going to deal that sweet spot damage right now either until OAD weapons come out either. 8)

The only real factor would be the daggers themselves. They might have too high of a offset at lower levels, (I.E. the min/max damage could be too high at lower levels. The min/max is meant to spread out larger and larger as levels come out.). Something we might have to take a look at.

I would also say if you haven't at least brighted and blessed your item, you need to do this. For assassins, it makes a larger impact than any other class.

I was incorrect with the values but this is what I see with the OAD Weapon, level 25, 22 str, brilled (which sorcs can do), and decked. On div.
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 116-159
Backstab 1 weapon: 464-636
Backstab 2 weapons: 510-699

Same as above, but 24 STR:
Min/Max Normal: 126-174
Backstab 1 weapon: 504-696
Backstab 2 weapons: 554-765

----

Now lets get into leveling mode. Let us take a Bone dagger. Level 21 assassin, 22 str, no bless or enchantments. ON div
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 56-91
Backstab 1 weapon: 224-364
Backstab 2 weapons: 246-400

And then lets take the same as above, but decked:
Regular hits:
Min/Max Normal: 78-114
Backstab 1 weapon: 312-456
Backstab 2 weapons: 343-502



To me, the above variance seems OK. You can claim that the 224-364 damage is low if you don't deck it, and that is true, but you CANNOT base this off weapons that are decked. Lets take an example here.

We will use a knight, so pretty high str bonus per point. Same as above, Level 21, 22 str, no bless or enchantments, on div. We will use a BLOOD SABRE, which is a decent weapon in game.
Min/Max Normal: 94-137

Decked Blood Sabre:
Min/Max Normal: 126-170


You can't compare an undecked weapon to decked in any case though. When comparing damage values with swords, daggers, etc. The assassin to me comes up in front with weapons of the same values. You also cannot compare min dagger to max sword. You should compare min to min, max to max.

Hope this gives some insight. I don't mind the idears and such though, I don't think they are by means any way bad.

Ah, ok, the vote thing mislead me to believe it was 3x to 4x for assassin. I do appreciate the time you took to answer my post, and it did contain some very insightful information. If the daggers themselves seem too strong at lower levels, you could always move some of the factors over to depend on stats and adjust the daggers as you see fit. May be complicated and messy, but it would allow for some variations. just an idea.

I was also just listing the things that needed to happen to hit that 1400 double backstab scenario, landing the hit being one of them. Of course the average is higher with backstabs vs normal attacks.

Also, maybe I am only noticing the highs and the lows, but it would appear that they happen more often than anything else in between. What I mean is, often I will hit for minimum backstab (or near) or maximum backstab (or near) its rare that I will land a backstab that is the "middle" number. Not sure if I am just seeing things, but I have seen a lot of backstabs.

For any comparisons, I would be ideally be using the same weapon, same enchants, etc.

Thanks again.

[NiteHawk]

Well I can state that the formula for min vs max picking is entirely random. It is a Random.Number(DamageMin,DamageMax) with no average or sliding towards the lower end of it. Could be just bad luck though too.

[Deehok]

Well I can state that the formula for min vs max picking is entirely random. It is a Random.Number(DamageMin,DamageMax) with no average or sliding towards the lower end of it. Could be just bad luck though too.

RNG can be a cruel mistress..

[killa]

well after playing one of the only slayers so far and being engaged in a bunch of pvp, id have to say slayers suck balls. its like rok as far as damage except you have no shield so no armor. damage wise we should hit harder with dual wield. I have all emerald armor and its only 44 armor and thats the best available so I get hit HARD by melee as well as magic. And clerics are super OP, we had a 6 on 6 pvp match and 10 minutes later everyone was healthy or slightly wounded and we all just left in the worlds most boring stalemate

[Folder]

You'll hit harder with oad weapons. Patience young one.

And getting crushed by magic means you picked low wisdom, that's the tradeoff.

Clerics are strong but there's no reason you can't kill one with 5 people attacking. Were you focusing them? Move damage around and coordinate attacks. Even with current weapons I'd say that with coordination you are going to round someone.

[killa]

You'll hit harder with oad weapons. Patience young one.

And getting crushed by magic means you picked low wisdom, that's the tradeoff.

Clerics are strong but there's no reason you can't kill one with 5 people attacking. Were you focusing them? Move damage around and coordinate attacks. Even with current weapons I'd say that with coordination you are going to round someone.

all 6 level 25ers in the group with all the best gear in game focused on the healer. the healer was never under slightly injured. We agreed including them beceause we had a healer too, that healers are OP.

But oad weapons doesn't matter what will they be, +2 ap over brilled bones? +4? That doesn't add shit really

[killa]

When nobody at all dies after 10 minutes of 12 people battling, its fuckin retarded.