Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby JadeFalcon » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:28 am

"One shooting" is not a thing - even two backastabs arent enough to one round someone, barring if that person is damaged and you get really really lucky - which means in actuallity, you need to land 3 backstabs to kill someone.
But considering just how frail slayers are, and the hide limitations they now have, and low potion heal - you are dead before you get the chance.
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

Terron
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:22 pm

i like it the way it is now. dont have outrageous back to back 800 damage attacks instantly. they have a weakness (although a tad overexposed atm (below*)) they can rehide fast to stay alive.

however there is a smaller tweak i think thats needed. since slayers and brigs have to prioritize int as a stat which makes them take the double whammy from magic, triple if u count cloth. i think slayers and brigs should get +3 int when hidden. with mages just raping them in 1 round at times i dont think its fair that mages with 23+ int pretty much insta search(1-2 attempts) 20 int slayers. should be a tad harder for everyone to search them out including mages. this is quite irrelevant to rangers who can get 30 int pets spamming search anyway. the other side of this is the pve part. as i have used, and quit using entirely my 10 int slayer because my backstab is interrupted 20-25% of the time by so many monsters and bosses.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

User avatar
NiteHawk
Site Admin
Posts: 3818
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:45 pm

Terron wrote:i like it the way it is now. dont have outrageous back to back 800 damage attacks instantly. they have a weakness (although a tad overexposed atm (below*)) they can rehide fast to stay alive.

however there is a smaller tweak i think thats needed. since slayers and brigs have to prioritize int as a stat which makes them take the double whammy from magic, triple if u count cloth. i think slayers and brigs should get +3 int when hidden. with mages just raping them in 1 round at times i dont think its fair that mages with 23+ int pretty much insta search(1-2 attempts) 20 int slayers. should be a tad harder for everyone to search them out including mages. this is quite irrelevant to rangers who can get 30 int pets spamming search anyway. the other side of this is the pve part. as i have used, and quit using entirely my 10 int slayer because my backstab is interrupted 20-25% of the time by so many monsters and bosses.


I think it's mostly a survivability issue at this point too. I do agree they need to prioritize INT now in order to survive. I am OK with that though. There was one recent change that resolved a bit overpowering with the ranger pets (50% nerf originally for agi, it's 15% now.). Slayers got a free remap though too.

Bonus INT when hiding could be a thing. I don't think physical is much of the problem though, probably magic. The class could be more geared towards hiding and lowering damage via that instead. For magic damage, maybe 10% more damage would be more ideal then where it is at currently.

I like the fact that hide is a useful thing now, and INT is important for them though. Survivability can be an issue as it might of been too much, but it can be tweaked (and I'll keep an eye on the discussion here and make changes based on what people say here + discord).

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:38 pm

Kruell wrote:No


Fine - NH always stated that he wanted slayers to be "Glass cannons".
Well, they are too "glassy" now, so I guess one way to balanced that is to make them "more cannon".

But If more damage is off the cards, can we play with increased defensive AGI?


Also - with the hide delay set at 0.5 seconds, and the exhaust timer now set to 8 seconds, this means that whereas other classes can attack every 8 seconds they full round, slayers attack every 9 seconds - over 10% slower.
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

User avatar
NiteHawk
Site Admin
Posts: 3818
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm

You can say it 9 seconds, but then you can also say they get 4.5x damage too. If you equate it to the general classes.

First up, they get more damage in general. If you take in hide as a attack compared to other classes, it's around 2.25x damage more for two attacks. It's probably more like 2.025x if you factor in the extra time and then anywhere between 2.025x-1.75x when factoring in special attacks or higher damage classes in general. That's not all however:

You only need two attacks per round to be successful. If we take the base 40%, landing two attacks in a row is 16% chance with same AGI. However for someone to land 4 attacks in a row which (wouldn't still be the same damage anyways), it is 2.56% for those four attacks (and 6.4% for three attacks.)

That's what I kind of mean by saying it's not really a damage issue anyways.

User avatar
JadeFalcon
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:29 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:50 pm

NiteHawk wrote:snip


Other classes have higher AD - so that multiplier isn't comparable. I do 2.25 more damage on 125AD (which is high), other classes have way more AD*.

Plus, in 3 rounds a slayer has 6 opportunities to dish out damage. Other classes have 12 opportunities. Considering that not all combats are with div, and armor deflection is a thing, you actually need to hit 3 backstabs to kill most people (except gnomes with div!) - but by the time you do that you're dead, as you now:
- have cloth armor
- take 15% more spell damage
- Are slower to attack



*The classes that have lower AD are either chanters (who fry us with spell damage), or druids (FF)

NiteHawk wrote:
You only need two attacks per round to be successful. If we take the base 40%, landing two attacks in a row is 16% chance with same AGI. However for someone to land 4 attacks in a row which (wouldn't still be the same damage anyways), it is 2.56% for those four attacks (and 6.4% for three attacks.)


My point exactly - I have 16% chance of doing 0dmg, whereas other classes have next to 1% to do 0dmg per round. Stack up two or three rounds, and slayers are dead - except when you get to land three BS in two rounds.
Don't take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.

Proud member, Halfling Appreciation Club

HAC Tip of the Week:
Roast Halfling leg with rosemary, garlic and white wine. Ideal for that family dinner!

Terron
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:06 pm

i dont know about after update but before update if you ran the numbers vs a shielded opponent in heavy armor a slayer was near 25x as likely to get a perfect round(2/2 unblocked/mitigated) than a 4 stam attacker(4 separate attacks = 1/2 hit rate, 2x more absorbs, 2x more blocks)

also want to point out there is no hide delay unless you get searched out. typically all i see when using my slayer is i attack get attacked back once and i rehide. and repeat til the opponent runs. at worst u have to drink a potion after stabbing in which case u get attacked 1x after stab and 1x after potion and rehide.

biggest problem atm isnt anything more than not being able to stay hidden. even at 20 int its near impossible. i also use a 24 int brig alot and still gets revealed all day when 21+ int casters and rangers are around. just need to stay hidden a little bit better to combat the new skills and builds to combat them.

the penalty to magic is double impact atm since slayers have to drop all wis for int and get destroyed.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

User avatar
NiteHawk
Site Admin
Posts: 3818
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:32 am

Terron wrote:i dont know about after update but before update if you ran the numbers vs a shielded opponent in heavy armor a slayer was near 25x as likely to get a perfect round(2/2 unblocked/mitigated) than a 4 stam attacker(4 separate attacks = 1/2 hit rate, 2x more absorbs, 2x more blocks)

also want to point out there is no hide delay unless you get searched out. typically all i see when using my slayer is i attack get attacked back once and i rehide. and repeat til the opponent runs. at worst u have to drink a potion after stabbing in which case u get attacked 1x after stab and 1x after potion and rehide.

biggest problem atm isnt anything more than not being able to stay hidden. even at 20 int its near impossible. i also use a 24 int brig alot and still gets revealed all day when 21+ int casters and rangers are around. just need to stay hidden a little bit better to combat the new skills and builds to combat them.

the penalty to magic is double impact atm since slayers have to drop all wis for int and get destroyed.


The magic penalty might not be needed to be honest with the changes anyways.


JadeFalcon wrote:My point exactly - I have 16% chance of doing 0dmg, whereas other classes have next to 1% to do 0dmg per round. Stack up two or three rounds, and slayers are dead - except when you get to land three BS in two rounds.


This would only make sense if your damage wasn't boosted too.

The average damage is seen here.
4x attacks with 150 damage.. Average damage of 40 attacks is 150.
2x attacks with 300 damage.. Average damage of 40 attacks where 20 are disregarded (for hiding) is 150.

Most people prefer the 2x with 300 damage as its harder to counter. This was also seen with the original crimson blade that took two attacks but dealt double damage. We had to change it because of it too. However, slayers get more bonus then just 'double' when you equate /hide to attack so for them it's more like.

However, it's not even like this though, taking the same STR on a DoD and SoD (Yes I know we can do more/less damage than the below, it's just an example with same str and same weapon quality):
Assassin 2x = 524 damage per hit = 1048 damage
Paladin 4x = 182 damage per hit = 728 damage
Knight 2x = 193 damage per hit = 772 damage

It's over just 'halving attacks and doubling damage'. It's more like 'halving attacks and doubling damage, then giving an extra 30% more damage on top of that.'

Yes, I do understand what you mean though, people with 4x attacks have more chances, but it doesn't hold off when you include the amount of damage you're getting on top of that, which is even more then just doubling damage.

I'm not arguing that survivability can't be the issue here, but it's not the damage.

User avatar
Kruell
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Kruell » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:28 pm

NiteHawk wrote:The magic penalty might not be needed to be honest with the changes anyways.

I'd suggest that if you remove it you consider making it easier to search out hiders since the incentive to play high int classes (casters) will be reduced.

I play a 20 int/10 wis brig a lot. He doesn't have much of any trouble with casters but that may be mainly due to how I play and a large part of luck. Few people actually play casters so I can normally avoid them or hide while the DE zerker or Gobby ninja kills them. Smart slayers/brigs run with MR characters to kill the chanters first. When I'm on my chanter, I always target slayers first and even then I hardly ever kill them. Most run away or just do hit and run so magic damage is never a major factor in the battles.

My 14 int/10 wis Saury slayer does horrible against casters. Still, I win more than I loose except in group fights. 1v1 is a different animal than group fights. I have fought parties of 3 casters before and been destroyed (rounded) but that is a freak scenario. The magic penalty is a major factor in group fights but not in 1v1 in my experience. Group fights are difficult to balance because so many race/class combos are available that one change can alter the outcome.

What are we trying to balance Slayers/Brigs for? Are they supposed to be balanced to 1v1 or groups. The answer to that question changes what/if anything needs to be done.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

User avatar
Lateralus
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:21 pm

Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Lateralus » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Destroying low wis slayers / brigs is all casters got going for them atm.

All the high wis characters has kind of phased out casters in this meta. Really all casters got going is that big counter to rogues. I can see maybe reducing the damage a bit but take it away and casters role is almost gone.

There just does not seem to be enough difference between say a lizard with 22 22 18 and say a dark elf or goblin with 20/19 22 18/20 when those classes become immune to magic as well.

Trading a few damage points to become immune to magic is the smart choice and what most poeple do. Half orc is a bit of an outlier because they get a lot more str and rounding ability. Plus they have about 200 more hp pool.

Might not be a bad idea to consider a higher overall penetration on spells but wis just reduces damage itself more.

Instead of hitting 1/4 for 180 on 18 wis character maybe hit 2/4 for 140 (damage is absorbed more)

Getting spell damage on staves or maybe even tossing penetration as an alternate option would be great too.

Think we got 2 blue level 25 staves.
Staff of power +3% spell damage
Staff of pen +3% spell pen

Player kind of picks what they wanna focus on.


Return to “Race/Class”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests