Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Terron
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:35 am

it may be linear, but its ineffective the way things are built. i play 3 hiders 24 20 and 11 int. 11 sucks flat out pve. 20 cant hide vs anything in the caster department considering almost every caster is 22-24 int its rough. then when u factor in watchers and stuff u cant hide at all. and noone can hide from a 30 int bird pet with 5-9 infravision spamming 3 attacks every 5 seconds.

now when u take 24 int hider into a large group situation it tends to just look like; autosneak in, hide, get blown up, retreat, drink pot, autosneak in, hide, get blown up, retreat, drink pot, hide outside, and wait for stam. repeat over and over.

in most cases i dont even have time to look over 2 people before a watcher reveals my ass. but wait this isnt even the best part, this is only with 1 watcher, what about 2 3 or even 5. no class should spend 15 mana to instafkover a whole class or 2. i say this because and only because i have max hide, there is no way to get better. idc if watchers spot me some but if 24 int doesn't last a whole second might aswell just log on the 11 int guy it tends to play out the exact same.
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daedroth
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby daedroth » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:45 am

Eh... I can't verify the watcher thing, I used it when alt was 23rd? Gnome sorcy vs Master Burglar, it never triggered once, but that's not pvp (and the master burglar would have been higher level right?, ? INT but probably high).

If Watcher is a problem, why not make the watcher a high INT pet (INT = to caster INT -#) that does not explode on discovering a hider, but auto hits/attacks for lower damage? It's HP could be lowered too?
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:21 pm

daedroth wrote:Eh... I can't verify the watcher thing, I used it when alt was 23rd? Gnome sorcy vs Master Burglar, it never triggered once, but that's not pvp (and the master burglar would have been higher level right?, ? INT but probably high).


Yeah I have to disagree too. It was tested and it doesn't find 23 inters all the time. I can grab the formula later on for averages but when I tested it with a few people it was struggling harder with 23 inters. Yeah if you have 4-5 watchers, then it will find easier defo, and for sure low inters though. I don't really see that as a problem though. Someone brings one type of class, bring a counter type sort of deal.

Anyways I do know it's again a little heavy on the side of nerfs on slayers, not saying that they don't need a little touchups on the better side either just depends on how we do it. I don't really think giving them a AGI boost to attacking is really a good idea though. I'm not ruling it out, but regardless they still are high damage dealers even without it. It might make them fairly strong in 1vs1 though which might just be another 180 again.

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daedroth
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby daedroth » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:13 am

AGL bonus to hit would make sense, but yeh it would be unbalancing.
Could go the other way though. AGL, maybe also WIS: as in just a generic defence bonus vs next attack (which would likely never get used due to double hiding).
Look on it as the surprise factor.
That would be a little bonus and less unbalancing.
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby JadeFalcon » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:20 pm

NiteHawk wrote:
daedroth wrote:Eh... I can't verify the watcher thing, I used it when alt was 23rd? Gnome sorcy vs Master Burglar, it never triggered once, but that's not pvp (and the master burglar would have been higher level right?, ? INT but probably high).


Yeah I have to disagree too. It was tested and it doesn't find 23 inters all the time. I can grab the formula later on for averages but when I tested it with a few people it was struggling harder with 23 inters. Yeah if you have 4-5 watchers, then it will find easier defo, and for sure low inters though. I don't really see that as a problem though. Someone brings one type of class, bring a counter type sort of deal.

Anyways I do know it's again a little heavy on the side of nerfs on slayers, not saying that they don't need a little touchups on the better side either just depends on how we do it. I don't really think giving them a AGI boost to attacking is really a good idea though. I'm not ruling it out, but regardless they still are high damage dealers even without it. It might make them fairly strong in 1vs1 though which might just be another 180 again.



AGI boost to defence against melee attacks.
You dont give them more damage (which you dont want)
You dont have to upgrade their armor (which you just changed)
You solve the problem you want (that they die way too fast)
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Terron
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:40 pm

i dont really think dieing too fast is a slayer/brig problem. infact if i was to use a saurian of any class the brigand/slayer is likely to live the longest just from the poor ass hides they do get off in time. its a racial problem and a system imbalance.

u have casters killing no mr in 5-6 stamina (this is fine)
you have high mr melee basically immune to casters (this is also fine considering the above)
you have low mr beat sticks with barely an ounce of benefit over high mr dark elf/goblin (this isnt fine when compared to the previous 2)

any lizard doesnt really survive long enough to make an impact in group fights if casters are present. saurian is a pispoor choice in the current game when even npcs are slaughtering low wisdom. just pick a damn goblin lol even a goblin with 10 wisdom is loads better with just racial negation (also broken)

imo slayers and zerks kinda just swapped places. zerk is more steady damage and more resilient and slayer is basically reserved for the larger group to use to blast a small group to pieces even faster, mainly because smaller groups cant afford to search and have too many weakpoints.

if u want to just roam the globe on slayers again you will have to use a bit more daft. sacrifice your +1 and use lings/goblins elves gnomes and dark elves. the class is still extremely viable, just not so much if u have no mr. also the slayers strongest point before update was the mere fact that there were several slayers at every fight. so rolling in on a solo elf probably isnt going to work.
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Styx
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Styx » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:29 pm

I don't know if it's been suggested or not, but if we modified the /search so if on finding an assy or thief, the steady classes, they can't immediately rehide and have a penalty to hide.

In thought, if you found someone holding a dagger your stareing right at them, they shouldn't be able to rehide and know they will get attacked.

This will improve the abilities of high int classes, and make the slayer stat choices even harder, high int to hide or more wis.

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daedroth
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby daedroth » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:06 am

Styx wrote:I don't know if it's been suggested or not, but if we modified the /search so if on finding an assy or thief, the steady classes, they can't immediately rehide and have a penalty to hide.

In thought, if you found someone holding a dagger your stareing right at them, they shouldn't be able to rehide and know they will get attacked.

This will improve the abilities of high int classes, and make the slayer stat choices even harder, high int to hide or more wis.


The problem is, some people think they (assassins) have been nerfed enough. I haven't used a slayer enough to judge (haven't got one right now, and when I did I was never good at using them to their full potential).

The problem with realism is balance, too much realism can be pretty damn unbalancing.
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anthriel
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby anthriel » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:10 am

Maybe this:
1. Leave damage as is (differentiation as a killer class)
2. Add class +2 dodge agility (like monks) per Jadefalcons suggestion. (Helps survive melee but doesn’t help against caster weakness)
3. Add a %fail on hide for both slayer n brig (dependant on int)... this negates both attack and defence if you fail hiding (ie you use up additional stam and can’t double bstab that round or you may end up exposed at end of round instead of rehiding) and it makes int worth something in 1v1 “no double hide” type events like the upcoming thief TGC. I’m not talking big amounts but maybe base 20int = 94% hide success and its +/- 2% for every int point higher/lower... hence a 24 int gnome has 102% success rate to hide (ie buffer even if smashed by a knight) and a 10int horc/saur has 84% success rate to hide.
4. Possibly add some anti-party type disadvantages (discussed previously in diff thread - eg can’t hide in parties which would make it harder for them to get heals if they went solo etc) if still needed to further balance groupfight hax

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daedroth
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby daedroth » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:18 am

Imagine this.
You use all your stamina (damage multiplied appropriately) on a back stab attempt (basically if you hit you will likely kill something, this will likely lead to rage (to lessen one shotted rage could make it 1/2 to full multiplication damage, so two stamina is x2 to x4 damage, 3 stamina is x3 to x6 damage, 4 stamina is x4 to x8 or 1/2+1 so x3 to x4, x4 to x6, x5 to x8 or some such), but if you miss you will be vulnerable).
You cannot hide again until your combat timer clears (so anything that resets your combat timer means no hiding, which means no backstabing, run away and try again?) maybe + some time.
Something like the above has been discussed before and its been nae.
Normal attacks have a chance of critical hit (an assassin knows where to hit for best effect).
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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