Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Terron
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:01 am

i think the hiders should keep the penalty for magic damage just not to the extent its at.

ur talking about endgame equips seeing buffed chanters hitting close to 300s with div on slayers, this isnt even a necro. i will say that at the current risk very few people are using slayers, however the ones that are are still doing well. but most pvp is avoided unless its free range. most of the ktp fights are just avoided cuz 4 dont kill 10.

as i see it brigs dont need the magic damage penalty at all. they have 0% chance to round people now since buffs got change. so having to run the risk of being roundable by slayers zerks and casters is a bit much. slayers on the other hand can still outright round some characters so running the risk is warranted. just seems like 15% is a bit much. i could say the same thing about goblins and dwarves magic negation aswell. just choosing goblin as a race more than covers the whole ember bonus and div weapon bonus and div bonus of a character that has div on you. its pretty sad when u can hit a neutral div character harder than u can hit a goblin with a 20% div bonus
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Kruell
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Kruell » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:09 pm

This is not a response to anything said on this thread so far but is a reflection of things said in game about slayers.

There is a TON of misinformation about slayers out there right now. I've talked to a lot of people in game about slayers/brigs and heard a lot of stuff that makes me wonder if we are even playing the same game. I've heard that Slayer damage was nerfed and 24 Str Orcs can't do over 500 damage even with div bonus since update. People claim that the hit chance for backstab is so bad that they only hit 1 out of 10 times. I've heard it said that even basic mobs like a golem search out slayers 90% of the time preventing them from backstabbing due to the .5 second delay. People claim that chanters regularly round slayers doing over 1200 damage and taking them out with ease.

I have to admit, I haven't experienced anything like what people are claiming. The most damage I've ever received on my lizard slayer, on div with a Crystal Staff, was 228 per blast. Even hitting me all four times if it was max damage, I'd still be standing. Maybe the chanter could have done more, but that was the hardest hit that landed. These claims of being rounded from full health just seem foolish from what I've experience... unless you are a ling or gnome with no wis and bad luck. My 22 str Saurian maxes out on neutral somewhere around 440 damage with a crappy weapon and no buffs. Claiming your 24 str orc with a DoD can't do 500 on div is a joke. Yesterday I was rounded a few times by slayers during the dragon fights and other pvp while on my 22 agi priest. Claiming they don't hit that often is just wrong since I was taken out at least 3 times from just a solo slayer hitting two backstabs. My 23 int gnome chanter can't round any slayer, even a ling. I have done over 200 damage per blast in the past but even if I hit each at max damage even a ling would still be standing. I have never had my golem find a slayer/brig. My Watcher doesn't find them that often. I'd rather have a good Stalker pet than a summoned creature since they suck at searching. In a party with 2 chanters with their watchers out, we were still dying to slayers/brigs even with the goblin ninja constantly searching.

Somehow, misinformation seems to spread in this game like a plague. Some of it is simple exaggeration. some is mistaking what you are seeing due to scrolling. Other times though I just think people want to stir up drama or troll others so they make up wild claims just to get a reaction. I'm afraid that some people just flat out lie though to make their side seem stronger.

We've got to get past the junk stats and claims before we can address the reality of the game.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:28 pm

Kruell wrote:We've got to get past the junk stats and claims before we can address the reality of the game.


Misinformation spreads, thats why there are some issues now since I tried to follow what people say, but alot of people spread dumb silly information that is making is insanely hard to balance and is just delaying it further. I don't think golems or zombies are the issue here, they are really dumb in general. Zombies have 20% your int, and golems 40%. But searching for monsters is probably 2.5x weaker then players on top of that. There is no way even with 10 int that they'd be insta finding you crazy. 10 int however is still fairly low and even going to 14 int will make a huge difference against monsters.

Different story with ranger pets and the watchers. They'll find you at 10 int but gets far harder the more INT you have.

Everyone did suffer a small damage loss from the update, but nothing serious. 24 str with DOD's, 3% ember. Decked:
You BACKSTAB a night dummy with your dagger of destruction for 673 points of damage!
Remove 10% of that against heavy armored users (around 200), and 5-7 for moderately armored). So still 604. That is only with a 3% ember too.

Maxed out everything with a 25 str half-orc and 5% embers, which most HO's do:
You BACKSTAB a night dummy with your dagger of destruction for 719 points of damage!
10% less for heavy armor users and you're looking at 647 damage.


With 22 str, you're looking at this being fully decked out with the purple item with a 3% ember:
You BACKSTAB a night dummy with your dagger of destruction for 628 points of damage!
10% less for heavy armor and your sitting at 565 damage.


If you don't have a purple, will you have this damage? No, you probably will lose out a small amount of it with a blue, but it should still be far over 500 with low/medium armor and probably borderline closer to 500 but still over with heavy. But that is the point with ANY class that doesn't have purple items, resulting in lower damage, you need to WORK TO GET THEM. You'll probably gain an additional 5-8 points of damage too with a str necklace too.

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The hit chance is not different. The only actual skill modularly that changes attack is a cavaliers /strike, which increases based on your focus points. The literal difference for attacking with 4.0 (BS) +1.1 (DW) damage is literally a number I set to the damage multiplier. It's not a new script, it's not something completely different. It's using the same attack formulas and system as a regular attack.

1200 damage is a bit farfetched, but depending on the race, your wis, and against div you might be doing 240-250 around. it 'could' be a little high there. Could be wrong and I need to check this gain. That is based on necros leech though.

I do however see where Terrons coming from too. With this change however, it means that you need to focus on INT a bit more if you want to PVP rather then WIS. Resulting in lower WIS. 10 INT is going to result in easier finds. Not so much without a PET though, Most people can't react to a 0.5 delay, which you have to include a persons reaction time, a servers lag, and then the delay per message the server does (which goes up slowly as more people are online to prevent lag (It's 8 commands a second with 1 person, and 4 commands a second (capped max) with 150 people if that is ever the case. It means that with our current playerbase I probably halt you for about 120-150ms per command currently, which does take into effect lag/etc so that if you have 100ms lag and the delay is 150ms, you'd only have 50ms delay.)

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I totally agree with you, before you 'change' things you need proper data, not people with fake news. 8)

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Lat wrote:There just does not seem to be enough difference between say a lizard with 22 22 18 and say a dark elf or goblin with 20/19 22 18/20 when those classes become immune to magic as well.


You shouldn't compare +1 with not +1 though. I'd say base it off their main stats as you didn't include it for saurians but did for goblins for some reason.

22 22 18
vs
19 22 20

Around 60-70 BS less damage, +100HP , and then 10% less spell damage with a goblin. Obviously more wisdom or int too though.

Immune to magic is a bit of a stretch though. While it's something we can look at if goblins need such a his immunity, maybe should be 5% for example, it's still not far off to what it probably should be. Dwarves though dunno, I don't hear many people screaming they are op yet.

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For their searching. I'm getting mix signals about what the issue is. Some say to leave the INT and some say they should get more INT which being hidden.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:15 pm

Modifying search is useless.
No one needs to search to attack a slayer, just macro the attack, and between BS, you can land your attacks.

I got 1600pp on a saurian slayer that cant beat a blue/green equipped ninja. If you dont get more damage on the slayer, then change hit rate, or dodge - as is, this class is totally broken.
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Terron
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:48 pm

dont tank with a slayer lol. im usually pvping on my brig and never get hit more than once before rehide. its ofc different if several people are mashing your macro. the biggest thing here is to just have a few more int than your target so they cant search you and u just trade 1 for 1s until u win or they run away.


ftr my ice chanter with crystal staff(9% bonus) does 254 on div to fire horc slayer 24 int
does 278 with 26.4 int (avg level bardsong)
and 300+ with spirit buffs
does 189 to fire div goblin(so far) - yes retarded (looks to me like the 10% is negated before all my nice gear, embers, and div bonus boosts the damage)
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Rigs
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Rigs » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:33 pm

In my opinion, slayers suck because of inconsistency. They used to get by on a lucky double backstab, dropping most players to severe/critical and even rounding low AC/END players (albeit very rarely). With the hide/atk delay, there is plenty of time to spam heals to prevent this from happening.

Change /backstab to cost 3 stam OR change /backstab to 4 stam that doesn't require the player to hide first. Increase the chance of landing the attack by at least 25%. While this doesn't fix survivability, it makes them a threat in open pvp when everyone is macroing the same player, with a very high chance to score a killing blow on a player who is already taking damage. This would obviously not be useful in a hit and run situation, as it would cost all 4 stam for one attack. This change would not be meant to replace the current hide/attack system already in play, but would give the option to frequently land a large hit when the occasion calls for it, as well as rewarding precisely timed attacks from higher skilled players.

As a side note: The div benefits are somewhat skewed, I believe. I didn't fully read through the damage calculations, but are we factoring in a defending player's armor embers? Obviously this would be a maximum of a 5-10% difference, depending on whether the opposing class can use a shield.

anthriel
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby anthriel » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:13 am

Slightly off topic to purely slayers but in my mind the whole balance issue with slayers in group pvp is tied up with the relative performance of priests.

The original reason I didn’t support slayer damage nerfing is because they were the only way to break stalemates with priests involved. Hence I relented abit when someone said priests were also getting nerfed somewhat. Unfortunately a lot of changes happened at once and it seems that priests have actually relatively improved in 1.7.0.1 rather than gotten nerfed. Imho it’s much harder to kill a priest now cos (as Rigs mentioned) you can spam heals much faster than a slayer can double stab. That combined with lower potion heals and slayer armor/hide nerfing etc and it’s much more likely that the slayer dies before the priest does in group pvp and no1 except a much larger party can take down the priest (it’s likely long over before heal degradation even becomes a factor for the priest). Given the slayer nerf and potions nerf, priests are getting to become way too much of a game-changer in group pvp. And this just makes for either: (a) super one-sided fights where one side has priest and other doesn’t - which slayers used to have more of a chance to help win; or (b) a tediously long drawn out fight that essentially only ends by outnumbering or when heal degradation kicks in.

Therefore I think that if slayers are going to have a delay to stab then there should also be something to nerf priests more (eg a corresponding slight delay between aids or something). Shrugs.

Terron
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:21 am

i used a 23 str saurian slayer and killed 138 people in 3 days. that shit is piss easy. after that wayner bought it some purple daggers...yeah rocked 80% of people i tried on with blues. the attack delay is shorter than the old rehide penalty its still easy to get 2 shots off. just cant insta Queue it like before so most people get a potion in or a heal in group. that just means rounding is rare because your target hps are 1150+ and u cant instantly pickoff every race under 20 endurance.

all thats changed is they eat a bit more damage(alot from magic) and dont hit 850 850 850 850 850 when buffed. they used to and still do shut down any healer. the bigger problem is theres just half healers everywhere in any group fights. classes like necro cavaliers and stuff do enough damage to break priests now, so a group of 5 has 3 healers in it. as if u didnt see it coming.

if they are so bad sell me a few slayers ill have some fun

@antharial nah man even cavs are breaking single priests. zerks do it even great equipped ninjas are. priests dont heal enough to beat 2 dps anymore so instead of making a better healer or a gnome u just get your buddies on all minstrels and guards and only need 2 dpsers

edit: also since priests heal around 800-880 a round now splitting damage to multiple people is breaking priests rather quick.
the biggest problem has always been armies of healers with 2-3 huge dpsers that just round people sooner or later with 0 risk. healers need a nerf when massed together like i said on the healing thread ages ago. instead we got heal decay which just screws the outnumbered. each same team healer on square should drop max heals at an increased rate. like 2 healers -5, 3 healers -12, 4 healers -20, etc
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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:41 am

Terron wrote:edit: also since priests heal around 800-880 a round now splitting damage to multiple people is breaking priests rather quick.
the biggest problem has always been armies of healers with 2-3 huge dpsers that just round people sooner or later with 0 risk. healers need a nerf when massed together like i said on the healing thread ages ago. instead we got heal decay which just screws the outnumbered. each same team healer on square should drop max heals at an increased rate. like 2 healers -5, 3 healers -12, 4 healers -20, etc


Unfortunately to me that won't really work either. Not only is it probably going to be taxing on the server to have to check all players in the room each time you cast a heal, but if you give people a way to abuse it, people will 9 times out of 10 in this game. I assume you define 'team' as guild mates and not party, as people would simply be spamming heals out of party then, sure it is harder, but still not really a problem. But if it was guild based, it would most likely result in split guilds (but for the wrong reasons) to compensate for it so they can heal at maximum. I'm all for ideas here, but if it can be abused, it's going to be abused. Needs to be a working system without monitoring anyways.

Rigs
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Rigs » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:16 am

Since this had become a healer issue at this point, what if there was a penalty that involved healers healing healers. Either a penalty (reduced heals) to healing yourself in PVP or a penalty for a priest receiving heals from a different priest.


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