DEATH MAGES

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NiteHawk
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:06 am

Well I do think that monsters are a bit nasty due to the changes. It's not just necros/sorcs/etc that get the short end of the stick (as Terron was saying on the other post too.) Basic NPCs probably need a damage reduction though.

Damage could be also bumped for sorcs/necros but the damage difference between a sorcs blast and a necros leech at the moment are pretty similar, having a necro right now is probably like having a 23 int sorc vs a 20-21 int sorc (hence why if you bump one you prob have to bump both.). It really depends though on where we want them to be, damage wise.

By increasing damage though too you can probably lower the slayer (and nullify the thieves) spell damage to maybe half though or less.

Terron
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Terron » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:03 am

magic doesnt get absorbed or blocked so if it goes much higher itll be problematic(slayers and brigs atm). its always been the success rate for me, spells dont seem to land as much as melee. they do plenty of damage when they hit. i think drudge are the only semi-high level monster ive seen they maintain a high success rate on. most monsters are exactly like kruell said multiple mana potions or wines for every kill.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:02 am

That's really surprising for MR and basic leveling mobs. Need to maybe look at that. Generally like AGI the MR to hit a monster is lower. However if people are just adding wisdom to all monsters without any thought to it I can understand why there is a problem. I'd probably have to look at it.

In terms of PVP though, only the high wisdom races tend to have higher MR. The formula is pretty basic: Starts at 28% wisdom at 10 wis and 4% wisdom per wisdom point, not including racial/class bonuses. PVE starts at 10% and goes up 4% wisdom per point (similar to how AGI works for monsters). However again if builds are setting to high wisdom it probably needs to be adjusted. Even with the 1-4% fizzle rate it's generally supposed to be 'better'.

There is also negation which probably goes up to around 10% depending on wisdom. AKA damage removal even if it goes through, but I doubt that's the issue here.

I'm not saying ALL Mobs are supposed to be the same, but there was meant to be some variance. I.E. mobs with high agi but low wis. mobs with low agi and high wis. Things like that to kind of promote 'specific leveling spots' here and there for players. To not always be the same grinding area per crit, etc.

I'll leave damage for now though may do some changes with necros, however we'll take a look at monsters first too for a few issues.


Terron wrote:magic doesnt get absorbed or blocked so if it goes much higher itll be problematic(slayers and brigs atm).


Yeah that's what I mean though. As a general question to everyone: Would it be better for example if we lowered slayers to lets say 5% or 7.5% bonus, remove it from brigs, and then give a little more damage to spells themselves (Possibly adding 3-5% more damage on all spell damage.) In the end slayers would take the same damage as they do for example, but they'd do more as a whole to everyone.

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Lateralus
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Lateralus » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:11 am

Yea another prob is progression. While all melee can and have gotten items to make their damage higher and higher casters have stayed the same. We really need to make a way to make that staff important to casters.

Ideally we would lower the base damage of blast for example by 50 or so meaning casting it without a staff would be say 150 instead of 200 damage then a green lvl 25 staff might put you back at 200 blue 210 purple 220 and so on.

That or we could make it real simple and add spell damage to staves like how crim works through scripts. Green level 25 adds 3%, blue 4%, purple 5% and so on.

Only problem is if you get a humming it would have any effect on the spell damage unless some scripting wizard took that into account. Ideally if we did it this way I would add spell damage increase to staves and create a type of wands and have them add spell perice so there would be an option.


I can see moving slayers and brig bonus down to 5%. I don’t get why slayers would get harder than brigs tho. I get slayers do more damage but brigs are usually much harder to find and kill on top of that have traps now. Survival is much easier on brigs and damage isn’t that much different I understand why most prefer them.

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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:26 am

Lateralus wrote:Yea another prob is progression. While all melee can and have gotten items to make their damage higher and higher casters have stayed the same. We really need to make a way to make that staff important to casters.

Ideally we would lower the base damage of blast for example by 50 or so meaning casting it without a staff would be say 150 instead of 200 damage then a green lvl 25 staff might put you back at 200 blue 210 purple 220 and so on.

That or we could make it real simple and add spell damage to staves like how crim works through scripts. Green level 25 adds 3%, blue 4%, purple 5% and so on.

Only problem is if you get a humming it would have any effect on the spell damage unless some scripting wizard took that into account. Ideally if we did it this way I would add spell damage increase to staves and create a type of wands and have them add spell perice so there would be an option.


I can see moving slayers and brig bonus down to 5%. I don’t get why slayers would get harder than brigs tho. I get slayers do more damage but brigs are usually much harder to find and kill on top of that have traps now. Survival is much easier on brigs and damage isn’t that much different I understand why most prefer them.



I think humming effecting damage once we add it will be fine. We'll have to take it into consideration and make it work there :>

For the slayers/brigs thing, I'm on the fence on it atm. Alot of players seem to disagree with it at the moment, but I understand the other side too on why brigs should have it.

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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Terron » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:59 am

noones going to use a character that can be rounded by a single opponent lol. theres always several opponents they just instantly drop u.

this is the same reason the character triangle is so out of focus. mr cripples casters, casters cripple no mr , no mr melee doesnt cripple melee builds with high mr. and imo the #1 reason this is so fked up is goblins. only race that gets max wis, bonus chr hps, and a +1. sweet ass bonuses on top all while sitting with 23 agi and huge hps.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Kruell
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Kruell » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:21 pm

NiteHawk wrote:That's really surprising for MR and basic leveling mobs. Need to maybe look at that. Generally like AGI the MR to hit a monster is lower. However if people are just adding wisdom to all monsters without any thought to it I can understand why there is a problem. I'd probably have to look at it.

I remember we had a builder who created simple leveling mobs with 28 agi and 25 wis just because... Lat and I got him to weaken them but most still have 16 or better wis while also having over 20 agi. The area is a major leveling spot and most people can't handle it solo at the level it is supposed to be attracting. A lot of times builders don't think things through or have a basic rational for the stats on their monsters. My favorite is seeing a monster with high agi, int, and wis but it is supposed to be a race with low stats. With Karnath, I tried to base the monsters on goblin stats but below max stats. Casters eat Drudges right now because they have a high variance in their wisdom. Some can have goblin max but others can have below goblin minimum. It fit the nature of the monster where some in the area are physical while others are spiritual/magical. We've got "dumb animals" in game with higher int and wis than lizards, orcs, and in some cases goblins.

It's probably too much work for one person to fix them all tbh. I did a quick count and we've got over 200 leveling monsters. It's going to be a "monster" job to bring everything within new guidlines.

killa wrote:...or add something like lat said or like i said which kruell didnt mention idc id just like to have a purpose to play a DM over a beater. hack and slash is so boring

I didn't mention your suggestiong because some things are being tried out right now. :P NH is listening and seeing what works. Getting the % and formula right is taking some tweaking. I didn't want to comment on what you suggested until I saw how it was going to work.

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NiteHawk
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:42 pm

Kruell wrote:I remember we had a builder who created simple leveling mobs with 28 agi and 25 wis just because... Lat and I got him to weaken them but most still have 16 or better wis while also having over 20 agi. The area is a major leveling spot and most people can't handle it solo at the level it is supposed to be attracting. A lot of times builders don't think things through or have a basic rational for the stats on their monsters. My favorite is seeing a monster with high agi, int, and wis but it is supposed to be a race with low stats. With Karnath, I tried to base the monsters on goblin stats but below max stats. Casters eat Drudges right now because they have a high variance in their wisdom. Some can have goblin max but others can have below goblin minimum. It fit the nature of the monster where some in the area are physical while others are spiritual/magical. We've got "dumb animals" in game with higher int and wis than lizards, orcs, and in some cases goblins.


Ugth yeah those 28 agi and 25 wis mobs. I think they though that scaling it means raising the WIS or AGI per level but you dont need to do that, simply changing the level is enough, though obviously you want some variance.

16 wis isn't so bad. That is only 34% resistance on mobs. I need to double check that though but that would be in line to where most AGI is atm. I'm almost certain we have mobs higher then that though, in their 20's sometimes.

I think in the short time what I can do is something similar to rok. I'll add all the mobs with their values on google sheets and we can adjust it there. It's far easier to see when you can sort/balance that way. The only issue is sorting OAD mobs as obviously I'm okay if they are a little more difficult. (Maybe not all of them but at least the key ones.)

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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:26 pm

that has always been the problem imo. by the time u add in fizzles and unaffects mages seem to hit the same amount regardless. same seems to happen with players. anything from 45-55% mr gets hit for the same 1-2 per round and it almost never changes. that being said is why i actually like the high damage on necros atm. atleast their 2 hits actually makes a healer heal twice. i mean necros needed a damage boost for sure (as a 10 str brigand avged more damage a round than a necro with 20 int(tested this on 23 neutral monsters 100 rounds each) we also needed an actual magical dps class to, so it just made sense. the problem with pve is everyone has super gear and their avg str dpsers just have super damage.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Dan
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Re: DEATH MAGES

Postby Dan » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Regarding DMs, i think they need some love:

- Better AC with bonearmor (22 int chanter ss adds 124 AC, 23 int bonearmor adds 44 AC !!! )
SS can be cast in others, while bonearmor cant, so i think it should be better than SS

- (After the separation of leech and damage spell) The high damage spell could still recover a bit of hp

- Zombie could have a small % protect chance


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