Thieves and Stealing

Robin
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Robin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:51 pm

I'm advocating for thieves because I think they are underpowered. There's no class specific bonus/skill except for rob. Perhaps increased dodge or effect after successful rob should be implemented. I also think that auto-exhaust after failure of robbing is too crippling for a thief. Please consider. Thank you!

-Robin, Gnome Thief

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NiteHawk
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby NiteHawk » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:58 pm

Robin wrote:I'm advocating for thieves because I think they are underpowered. There's no class specific bonus/skill except for rob. Perhaps increased dodge or effect after successful rob should be implemented. I also think that auto-exhaust after failure of robbing is too crippling for a thief. Please consider. Thank you!

-Robin, Gnome Thief


At lower levels you will have trouble, that is true. You cannot expect to rob from high level monsters though either successfully. If you did play ROK, it was easy to rob from everything regardless of level, it was a bit weird in that regard. But in this game you can't be level 15 running and robbing everything in the wiken (level 22) area. Having high agi makes it easier to snatch as well. Robbing from high INT monsters would be harder as its a THIEF AGI vs DEFENDER INT roll check. So robbing from dumb mobs (often not casters) of your level is a good choice.

They will be getting some skills but it's a little in the back for now. Their damage is 'ok' when backstabbing, its set to 3x, while assassins default is 4x. But the intentions of thieves was that they were going to have some extra skills such as trap setting and other things as that. The robbing that auto-exhausts is really the only way to stop them from robbing you, otherwise it would be far to easy to rob everything with no issues, rob fails , you run off, wait, try again. It is more of an issue with PVP though then PVE.

Robin
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Robin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:07 pm

Good to hear future plans for skills. I did play ROK and the ultimate balance for them then was the 200 mill lvl 25. @ 300 mill and rob as the only bonus, they become meh. Looking forward to the traps and other skills. Thanks for the quick reply!

-Robin, Gnome Thief

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Folder
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Folder » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:41 am

Have we looked at exp from robbing recently? It seems quite low to me. I'm not sure what the numbers are but I receive approximately 1-3x the xp I receive when attacking the mob on another character of similar level. For example @ lv21 on a monk I can receive between 5-10k per hit on an appropriate level mob. When stealing I get about 10-30k per mob. There is no killshot bonus when robbing, so overall the exp rate is far slower than other classes that are soloing or grouping.

Grouping thieves are fine I think, less damage so less exp coming in but at least the killshot bonuses are there. But this is a thief we're talking about, we are supposed to steal right? I think robbing exp should be at least equivalent (if not better) than grouping xp,e specially considering you might rob an area like Karnath and those mobs can sit there the rest of the day untouched (so you only get to rob them once a day is my point).

Opinions?


edit: stealing xp would probably be fine on higher lvl mobs with 200g on them, but that's very rare. More higher gold mobs would help but whether you balance around that or not is another story.
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Folder
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Folder » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:43 am

There's some detail in the post above but some more data:

walker guardian
start xp - 86,151,318
finish xp - 86,179,181
107 gold stolen = 260 xp per gold

Shadow Skeleton
start xp - 86,212,252
finish xp - 86,221,334
129 gold stolen = 70 xp per gold

This is on a lv22 thief with 23 agi. I full rob any mob, I think max robs are in the high 400s? But no mob has that much anyway. Walker guardians are solid stealing xp and shadow skeletons suck. I can clear out Karnath mine and not even make 1mil xp, whereas 1mil xp on a melee character rolls in at around 6 minutes and also KEEPS rolling because mobs are respawning. With robbing once you do it that room is useless to you until it's cleared. If I could get 10mil in an hour on my thief that would at least be similar to grinding xp, but then I'd also not be able to keep going still so that's worth keeping in mind.

I assume gold xp is a function of whatever xp amount is assigned to the mob, right? And gold xp is set at a multipler of that? To make it competitive it needs to be at least doubled from what it's at now, probably tripled tbh. Robbing every mob in the GY gives me about 1mil xp right now...and takes me 20 some minutes. As I mentioned in that same time a melee character will make 3x what I do they get to keep going. Don't increase gold on mobs obviously, that's not the issue.

Failure rate : Well I don't know how it's determined but on the same lvl22 thief (23 agi) I can and often do fail stealing from mobs in Karnath Mine 3-4 times in a row. I don't have a hard data set for you but I imagine it could be figured out based on whatever formula you're using. It just feels really bad sometimes, I'd suggest either making it more based on level (because I've noticed no difference between failures at 20-22 when stealing from the same mobs in Karnath) or just lowering it all around, but I think it being more level based makes sense and feels more rewarding. I've been robbing Karnath since about 18 and it should feel pretty easy now that I'm 22, but it doesn't.

Hopefully this makes sense, I'm balls tired right now.
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby JadeFalcon » Wed May 09, 2018 5:02 am

New skill for Thieves

/Bypass
Thieves should become immune to Kill to Pass mobs. Not only this would give them a huge tactical advantage, they would also become very dangerous at certain OADs as dropstealers. You know, because they could steal stuff. BEcause that is what they should do.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby NiteHawk » Wed May 09, 2018 12:38 pm

JadeFalcon wrote:New skill for Thieves

/Bypass
Thieves should become immune to Kill to Pass mobs. Not only this would give them a huge tactical advantage, they would also become very dangerous at certain OADs as dropstealers. You know, because they could steal stuff. BEcause that is what they should do.


I could see something like a negative type taunt when more than one player is on square but if it's only you they'd focus on you like normal, as you'd be the only check.

Terron
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Terron » Wed May 09, 2018 7:22 pm

i think he means a skill to move past the hold effect
not actually being immune to the monster lol


something like you hide then attempt an evasion attack( no damage). if the attack hits you gain the ability to evade that monster for 1s per int.
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Lateralus
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby Lateralus » Thu May 10, 2018 12:13 am

Even something simple like a /evade and if you fail you get brought out lose all Stam like a steal. Idk stuff for after update but yea I think he was meaning like a move to get past.

anthriel
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Re: Thieves and Stealing

Postby anthriel » Thu May 10, 2018 8:10 pm

JadeFalcon wrote:New skill for Thieves

/Bypass
Thieves should become immune to Kill to Pass mobs. Not only this would give them a huge tactical advantage, they would also become very dangerous at certain OADs as dropstealers. You know, because they could steal stuff. BEcause that is what they should do.


I like this idea as a natural boost to thieves doing what they should do. I don't think they should be completely immune to KTP mobs such that they could run circuits around dreads in seconds, but they should have a skill that allows them to have a %chance (eg based on INT) to escape a KTP mobs square without having to kill it (allowing them a faster getaway). I'd even be interested to see such a skill work on weird para mechanics like picking up a dragon scale etc (eg another class may be para for 30sec but a thief may have skill that allows them to escape sooner if their /escape or /bypass skill procs).

That being said, if this was implemented there may eventually need to be something that can combat this skill so that there is a chance to catch an escaping thief (eg changes to FF or Sight to detect them, or some kinda skill to lasso a thief attempting to escape with your loot lol). Peace


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