PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

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Kruell
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PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Kruell » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:00 pm

Last Saturday we had some very good... and VERY prolonged PVP. The battles at the Crystals started at 4:30pm and only ended at 5:17pm after one clan just quit going to defend their crystals. I know that there is supposed to be a lockout to prevent the constant runs on a crystal and long, drawnout battles such as that, but there is a very easy, and popular method of avoiding the lockout. Most clans will step one square outside of the crystal square and make the defenders come fight them out of the crystal spot. If the defenders don't, the people attacking the crystal will just step in, the party attacking someone, then the leader steps right back out. This hit and run tactic is very successful. The problem is, it is a method of bypassing the 3 death lockout for crystal fights. Couple this method with the simple tactic of running into town or hiding for 30 seconds to clear heal decay and you have never ending fights at crystals. Most crystal fights end when people just quit returning, not when they die enough to have been locked out. Last Saturday was by far the longest crystal fight I've ever been in but it isn't unusual for the fights to last 10+ minutes with people getting paralyzed due to death but the constant strike and run lasting so long their sickness goes away and they rejoin. I have to believe this is what sickness, heal decay, and lockouts was meant to prevent. The problem is people have learned how to get around it and extend the fights until the other side either has other buisiness or get's sick of it. Often, people will run back into town and wait out decay and sickness while enchanters or slayers just do a hit and hide as people constantly switch characters to twart macros. It puts the defenders in an untennable situation and makes the fights seem endless.

I suggest a fix from this war of attrition. Is there a way to code it so the pvp timer, if triggered within a crystal square, lasts for 5 minutes? If it also keeps heal decay active during this time it would help greatly to prevent people resetting their heals in waves against the defenders. Maybe have a crystal timer similar to the pvp timer that overrides the normal timers and passes like normal through pvp. Fighting to take crystals should be tactical and require skill, not be a measure of who is more devoted in staying in the fight. While the example from last Saturday was an extreme example, these fights seldom take less than 10 minutes unless one side is overwhelmed or the other party just isn't interested in drawn out fights.
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Terron
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Terron » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:34 pm

3 deaths in any area should lock acct out of that area for atleast 20 minutes. but if that doesnt happen you could atleast tie the area deaths to the crystals.

example being you die anywhere in dreadlands 3x in 15 minutes you get blocked from control crystal and control crystal shop for a period of time. 15 might not be enough but its a good start atm
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anthriel
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby anthriel » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:08 am

My feel is the entire control crystal dynamic could use an overhaul (another story) but for arguments sake i’ll suggest within the current dynamic to address what Kruell raised (Ie the tedious nature of Crystal attack/defence under current dynamic).

I think simple fixes to current dynamic to address this could include:

1. Could make crystal square KTP (with a 3min timer before you can leave if you accidentally walked in there and actually don’t want to kill the crystal etc)
2. With the above, you could make accounts locked out after 1 death to make it end faster and more decisively
3. Also make notification earlier so that ppl won’t not be bothered cos they are likely to arrive too late anyway
4. You could also make killing the crystal result in auto capture for attacking guild rather than having to then kill the neutral crystal which often results in it being killshot stolen back by the defending guild (another tedious dynamic that can demotivate people from bothering with capturing)
5. Might even want to consider setting max limit of numbers allowed in the KTP crystal room (eg 10 chars max) to partially avoid overwhelming numbers etc ... ie choose your party carefully before entering.

Shrugs I guess it doesn’t really affect me that much anyway so I’m not too fussed - but there’s my 2 cents anyways.

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NiteHawk
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:22 am

I agree with earlier warning. Maybe no neutral anymore to remove the chance of hitting it back. They heal to full on their own anyways just need to tweak the warnings on it. I can see how the neutral chance can cause an issue there.

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3 deaths in X area could lock you out (I'd need to code something like this first to support it via scripts) If we want to go that route too. It's probably needed in conjunction or as the sole reason to stop players from just fighting in different locations. It wouldn't really stop hit and run mechanics though though it's debatable if that's a bad thing, but I would obviously think not getting a death on the control crystal area would make it an endless fight. So I do agree with adding this part.

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For the other two talked about options:

KTP could work, I.E. attacking the crystal marks it as KTP for 2-3 minutes. Though obviously if they don't attack it after 2minutes they can just leave again anyways. Not sure if it would just be more painful that way anyways. It would probably help force them to fight on the crystal square though I do wonder if theres a way to abuse this. It would mean anyone who entered the room would get KTP locked though. This along with 3 deaths in the area would probably stop fighting outside of the crystals though.

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I'm not sure setting the PVP timer to 5 minutes would solve that though either or in conjunction with 3 deaths in said area locking you. Weren't you saying anyways that the PVP was taking place outside of the crystal room? Wouldn't it just mean that maybe attacking the crystal would mean they'd just run for 5 minutes since they know you're there, then come back once it's done and if you aren't defending it rinse and repeat or fight you outside the crystal area sort of speak?

Terron
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:10 am

making control crystal ktp would just make noone contest them again. i like it as is. just need a lockout feature so u cant runback too much. the even fights people are dieing alot. and frankly the funniest thing ever is when a single player drops the ks on the crystal at the last second. friend or foe that brings a smile to my face. that would all be gone with ktp and just replaced with "we have more numbers"
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Kruell
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Kruell » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:26 am

NiteHawk wrote:I'm not sure setting the PVP timer to 5 minutes would solve that though either or in conjunction with 3 deaths in said area locking you. Weren't you saying anyways that the PVP was taking place outside of the crystal room? Wouldn't it just mean that maybe attacking the crystal would mean they'd just run for 5 minutes since they know you're there, then come back once it's done and if you aren't defending it rinse and repeat or fight you outside the crystal area sort of speak?

I was just throwing out ideas. I had to think about that fight, the distance it covered, and the number involved before I decided to suggest something. If that was a daily thing or happened multiple times a day I think most people would just quit bothering with the control crystals because the combination of hit and run and bypassing sickness/decay makes it run longer than some events. Some of the others came up with good ideas such as the 3x area deaths triggering lockout. People will always find an exploit or a way around anyting you put in given enough time. There is no way we can guess at all the methods people will use to get around something. Terron's idea seems to probably take care of many of the problems. I'm sure I can guess what will happen though once that get's put in but it is definitely a step in the right direction.

Short warnings are becoming a joke btw. If I'm in Alderra or Arkanman I can't make it to Wiken or Dreads crystal before they are taken. Sometimes I can't even make it from Canopia to the Dreads before it's gone so I have to keep a couple characters templed near the crystal at all times. Catching someone entering a OaD is also a time tested method of taking their crystal. That's a tactical decision though and if the warning were longer they would have to decide to abort the OaD or defend the crystal. One of the things that made that 45+ minute crystal fight a pain is the battle was taking place at different ends of the world. The attacking party would literally get beat back at one crystal and run all the way to another to take it. The defenders would be waiting on them to come back only to see the warning on another crystal and have to log on other characters to be able to get there in time. The whole mechanic of being forced to log back and forth between characters so many times was making people aggitated and ultimately made them give up defending. That's why I was thinking of a timer so it stays with the person no matter if they stay in one area or run to another to move the fight.

The hit and run is here to stay. I saw Empire use it some yesterday and it really upset a few people in another guild to have their own tactics used against them. I think 3 deaths in the zone will solve the bypass issue for a while. We can always tweak the time later.

anthriel wrote:5. Might even want to consider setting max limit of numbers allowed in the KTP crystal room (eg 10 chars max) to partially avoid overwhelming numbers etc ... ie choose your party carefully before entering.

Absolutely against this. A big enough guild could simply take 10 people into a crystal square and nobody could even show up to defend. I like the idea behind it... I just can see the easiest way to exploit it. Even if one group didn't have 10, if they had 7 the game would be filled with people screaming in general about numbers. I think this option would cause more problems than it would solve.

Terron sums up the best reason against ktp. I hate it when someone snipes the crystal but it is part of the game. It's like drop stealing... a valid tactic.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

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NiteHawk
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:25 pm

Yeah we can add the 3 deaths in an zone/area thing. I made some functions today but need to test them on build and code the script for it.

On top of the warning system.. Do the crystals have enough HP, or do they need more? We never got much information about this bit. More HP is another way to increase the warn time obviously specially if its too low, though it can warn at a earlier time too. I don't really want it warning when theres 99% hp etc as it would be more annoying then anything and it should only warn once it's known that someones trying to take them.


I hate it when someone snipes the crystal but it is part of the game. It's like drop stealing... a valid tactic.


It's a valid tactic but is it a good game play mechanic. That's the true question 8). The sniping could simply be removed via not having it become NEUTRAL but if the majority feel it is OK then it can be left for now. I'm on the fence how I feel about it though I slide towards no neutral mode myself. I'd feel defeated in a dumb not wanting to do the crystal again sort of way if 5 guys work on a crystal only for 1 person to one hit it at the last moment and walk out. The crystals heal themselves really fast under no attack, and you can also heal them as a defensive player.


I agree with KTP is too much.

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Ohko
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Ohko » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:35 pm

If you remove sniping, then there's no point in defending a crystal since you can't kill a crystal your guild have a claim to so you'll lose it eventually after the enemy locked out timer wears off. The only point now to defend a crystal is trying to snipe a neutral crystal kill.
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Kruell
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Kruell » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:46 pm

If you remove the neutral part of the crystal, then it will need more HP. While I was annoyed when I first saw how the crystal works, I get the phases now. I do see a way to exploit the neutral crystal phase but so far I've only seen it done twice. Since it isn't common, I don't think people like to take the effort.

I think my ninja averages around 1k+ damage per round on a crystal. So if there are 5 ninjas/zerkers going at it, the crystal will die fairly quickly since it doesn't dodge or apparently have armor. I've not bothered to check stats on a crystal but I do think it probably needs raised some just for those massive dps parties. Having it warn at 75% is probably a good idea.. unless that's where it is at now. If it is there now then we need to massively raise the HP, at least 50% more if not higher. I can take a lvl 16 ranger and solo a crystal but it takes forever. A group of 25ers can knock one out fairly quick as is.
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Terron
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Re: PVP Tweak example Control Crystal fight

Postby Terron » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:17 am

originally i suggested having the control crystals have huge hp tables. and having a weapon like pickaxe have a huge modifier on them. this gives smaller groups a chance of defensing because the attackers can either hit for shit damage on the crystal or not be able to hurt players much. might be too chaotic.

just hope the town control crystals have a little better system in place before release. perhaps these can be ktp and only allow 5 max people of each guild inside and block out all guildless.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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