That new archer thing is rough.

Rigs
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That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Rigs » Sat May 18, 2019 6:06 am

/rs is a little overpowered. The damage isnt any concern, i think it does just what it should. The problem is that because it's counted as a single command, it's processed by the server faster. The server needs a single input to know that 5 attacks are demanded by the player. After testing a bit, it's extremely obvious that no matter how fast any other class is, they can't keep up with an archer. After round 3 or 4 you'll be around half way behind an archer... That is as soon as an archer can cast /rs, you'll come off exhaust quite a bit later which is kind of a big deal. I've tested this with multiple alts including halflings.

My suggestion isn't to change archers, but to give everyone the ability to expend all their stam at the same time on the same target.
Optionally, instead of "/set f5 a rigs" to attack once, maybe "/set f5 aa rigs" or "/set f5 fa rigs" to allow all stamina to be spent immediately for attacks on the same target.

I'm not one to whine... I think the original intention of the skill was to lock in all attacks and allow them to do more damage with each success, not to literally beat anyone to the next round of attacks and win by default.

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daedroth
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby daedroth » Mon May 20, 2019 10:21 am

I don't play anymore to test this. Is there a delay to the attacks? Maybe increase the delay time if it is perceived as being OP.
I remember all the protests about assassins using all their stamina for an alpha strike though.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Hollow
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Hollow » Wed May 22, 2019 2:41 pm

Elders already do this.

Rigs
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Rigs » Thu May 23, 2019 9:58 am

Elders have haste which decreases the time between rounds, not the time between attacks, and it's basically a staple of their class.

Terron
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Terron » Thu May 23, 2019 11:57 pm

you get something like 8 commands per second capped on your character with the way the queue stacks. unleashing 5 attacks at once w/o delay is around half a second saved each time. when compared to a 5 click attacker like ninja spending just over a half a second for 5 clicks(0.5 seconds for 4) vs .125 for 1 click. generally means the archer's attack speed is higher than even an elders overall. free haste and stamina!

not that this means anything with rng. im more or less interested in how other classes get adjusted with the "div scheme" like archers have. as in most games, new classes and races are OP and retarded at first and often have crazy differences that no other classes have like the div scheme.

ive already seen 3 hit rapid shots doing 400 on div on a 3rd hit, wait til dragon bows with arrows and proc double criticals, but in this sense, u can say the same for stalkers and some brig builds(tho rare on brig) the damage is just so much higher that classes like cavalier, some zerks etc arent worth using anywhere. rangers definitely dont need high damage with lings exceeding 170 a hit when their pets do 600+ damage every 1v1.

meanwhile here comes the cav smacking 146s standing behind a tower shield as an archer blows him up with 200s lol. archer is ok when fighting as a "guard counter" we already have a better counter with slayers tho. but what pierce archers are is cavalier and zerker eradicators. eradicated them from even OaD party slots. boss has high armor yay hit 200+ everytime with pierce. boss has low armor just rapido.

as far as what rigs is saying, rapid shot could just cause a 0.5 second exhaust penalty and would balance it all out mathematically
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NiteHawk
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby NiteHawk » Thu May 30, 2019 2:04 am

Yeah it's something we'll probably look at anyways. Same for pierce shot for PVE scenarios.

In terms of a druid, technically they should be equal/faster since I'm pretty sure haste gives around 800ms extra. I would say 4 attacks equates to 500ms of server 'queue' time, however this can vary a little if we ever somehow get a bigger population. The difference is mostly that you also get a damage bonus if you hit enough in a row anyways.

I disagree about everyone having a way to exhaust all commands for everyone. Rapid shot by design is meant to give them an edge on speed honestly. So it will have to be balanced in other ways, like adding a extra exhaust time, or tweaking damage a bit/etc. The whole speed was intentional actually though wasn't sure how it would be played out.

Terron
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Terron » Thu May 30, 2019 2:46 am

yes 5 attacks every 6.125s vs 4 attacks every 5.65 which equates to archer getting 1 attack every 1.22 seconds and an elder getting an attack every 1.41 seconds. the archer is faster in a prolonged fight.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby NiteHawk » Thu May 30, 2019 3:51 am

Terron wrote:yes 5 attacks every 6.125s vs 4 attacks every 5.65 which equates to archer getting 1 attack every 1.22 seconds and an elder getting an attack every 1.41 seconds. the archer is faster in a prolonged fight.


Based on 5 vs 4 attacks at .125 seconds per attack it would be 0.625s to 0.5s. So yeah technically true.

If you were to say a ranger has 5 attacks every 6 seconds, with no 'delay'. 100 attacks would take 120 seconds.

A druid with 4 attacks with a 0.5s and 5.2s exhaust delay would be about 145 seconds to do the same amount of attacks. Though I think druids on their own are a bit eh anyways and need something.

Having an extra delay for using RS might be the best option to 'sort' it. Possibly. I don't think the damage is bad, it's pretty random like usual, and hitting a crit on the 3rd or 4th attack is rare on it's own. So yeah they have the potential to do some pretty high damage, but it will normally be fairly average or less.

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NiteHawk
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby NiteHawk » Thu May 30, 2019 4:15 am

I tested PS Archer with 20str/20int vs a zerker with 23str.

In 50 attacks the zerker has 9985 damage, and the archer had 9168 damage.

It seems pretty OK to me, specially when not many NPCs have high AC. However I will say this: Archer is far more constant and looks better though actually wasn't. I had thought the archer had far more damage (aka 160-218 damage with little amounts of armor stopping), but it wasn't the case.

However, zerker though there was some low hits (~98 damage) their max was 273 damage. It looks worse when you see the lower hits but ultimately they do damage 200 AC higher than archers. If you're only fighting for 3-5 rounds against AC, a zerker will do really good, or really bad, while a archer is consistent.

On top of that though, zerkers do have the benefit of this damage with lower AC targets too, and even more really while archers will fall off really fast. Though rapidshot speed is probably really the only issue here.

Terron
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Re: That new archer thing is rough.

Postby Terron » Thu May 30, 2019 11:28 am

why would u compare both at 50 attacks tho? thats like iving a slayer 50 backstabs and wondering why they win.

wouldnt the archer get 50 while the zerker had 40 and slayer 20?
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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