DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

User avatar
Honzo
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:14 pm

DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Honzo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:44 pm

The rules are simple.
9 pm server
2v2 Tournament
Tournament Bracket Style
No Pots
All skills/spells (except Fade)
No hiding on last stamina(for thieves/assassin)
Unique Classes(No Class Stacking)
Buffs beforehand



This is a thread for discussion and comments related to the 2v2/3v3 tournament events.

User avatar
Vindal
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:50 am

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Vindal » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:40 pm

There should be heal limits in a 2v2. Any pure DPS team will get chipped to death by a DPS/Priest. Unless you have perfectly synced attacks and a snoozing Priest you just can't overcome those heals.

User avatar
Folder
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:04 am
Location: Texas

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Folder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:48 am

Heals are rough. Pure DPS is definitely boned, but I guess one could argue that's taking a bad comp. If you limit heals too much priest is useless, maybe there's a middle ground somewhere?

Double elim is rougher. Both of the last two teams forfeited cause people had to go :(. I quite like the style, it just needs to be shorter.
<Silhouette>

User avatar
Honzo
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Honzo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:56 am

Vindal wrote:There should be heal limits in a 2v2. Any pure DPS team will get chipped to death by a DPS/Priest. Unless you have perfectly synced attacks and a snoozing Priest you just can't overcome those heals.


Last time I did a 2v2 event I limited the heals and the dps teams CRUSHED the priest teams and I don't believe there were ANY guardians then. I am trying to find a good balance to where the person feels they can play their class but it's not TOO limited. I will be putting a cap back on next week but I've not yet decided how many heals.

Folder wrote:Heals are rough. Pure DPS is definitely boned, but I guess one could argue that's taking a bad comp. If you limit heals too much priest is useless, maybe there's a middle ground somewhere?

Double elim is rougher. Both of the last two teams forfeited cause people had to go :(. I quite like the style, it just needs to be shorter.


Finding that middle ground is the difficult part but I am certain with some community assistance we can come to what feels appropriate and fair to most people. Two teams did have to forfeit because people had to go, and I do agree that sucks. That being said, I explained at the beginning how it was going to be done. :) It's error on my part for it taking 1hour40minutes total to run but again, just a trial to test things. :)

If people feel like committing 2hours or if I can get another Staffer to run it with me I can probably tighten a double elim up to 1hour-1hour15m.

Thank you to everyone that joined and played(16 total! huge turnout). Please, keep the discussion rolling! Let's try to find a fair middle ground.

The changes that I am proposing right now are 3 heals per character(6 per team total) and shortening it to a Single Elimination bracket rather than double. I am also going to be allowing Fade to test it's strategic use again.

Thoughts?

User avatar
Folder
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:04 am
Location: Texas

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Folder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:25 am

3 heals isn't enough imo, and doing it per character is a bit goofy. I was guard/zerker and our first match against 2 ninjas had me use half my mana (aka a LOT more than 3 heals!). I'd not think, for example, a guard is of any value if I can only heal myself 3 times. The problem is this - quite a lot of rounds I needed to use all 4 heals, so if you limit heals too much then all that happens is guard/priest runs out of heals and then what? They are nigh useless.

Maybe 2 per round is better? Can't be limited to which person you heal because strategic healing/guarding should be a thing imo.

Fade is whatever, it provides no real advantage in 2v2.
<Silhouette>

User avatar
Honzo
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Honzo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:33 am

Folder wrote:3 heals isn't enough imo, and doing it per character is a bit goofy. I was guard/zerker and our first match against 2 ninjas had me use half my mana (aka a LOT more than 3 heals!). I'd not think, for example, a guard is of any value if I can only heal myself 3 times. The problem is this - quite a lot of rounds I needed to use all 4 heals, so if you limit heals too much then all that happens is guard/priest runs out of heals and then what? They are nigh useless.

Maybe 2 per round is better? Can't be limited to which person you heal because strategic healing/guarding should be a thing imo.

Fade is whatever, it provides no real advantage in 2v2.


It is 3 heals per head, meaning 6 per team any number of casts per person but only that many total. It's just a LOT to keep track of amidst all the chaos with a limit. :) It's a wild situation. The problem is more so with Priests than Guardians(due to inherently needing many stats to work). Maybe the answer is...bring a priest if you want heals! However in practice it seems much more damning not to and that if you don't then you are screwed due to lack of counterplay.

Maybe there could be a class with a MANA BURN type ability? Maybe lower priests Stamina to 3? I'm starting to think it might just be a PRIEST problem. We've seen this many times already. It's hard to balance right without people feeling cheated.

Now that I've said all that, I DO think there is counterplay to Priests but they require -VERY- good coordination and luck. Much more than your average player would have. As far as Fade goes, it's going back in to see how it messes with things(Slayers/Brigs) specifically and click-attackers.

The idea of 2 heals per round seems like it might be something we could try.
Does that seem to punishing?

User avatar
Folder
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:04 am
Location: Texas

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Folder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:43 am

Priests are of course the main "problem", but I think my guard did very well too. We couldn't have had a closer fight than we did with Horrid/Mallet.

Personally I think it's OK to just let healers be healers in this. They don't really get a chance to shine a lot of the time - when's the last time you saw a priest or guard in KotH? I may be alone here though so more opinions needed. In a 2v2 you want a healer...that's part of the gameplay right?

3 heals per team member gets wonky with guard. If I am guarding do I only get 3 heals? poop.
<Silhouette>

User avatar
Honzo
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Honzo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:17 am

Folder wrote:3 heals per team member gets wonky with guard. If I am guarding do I only get 3 heals? poop.


No. Take it to the simplest level. You'd get 6 heals TOTAL. 3 per head. Meaning 6 total for 2v2 and 9 total for 3v3. You can cast them any way you wish.

I will be running this same format for 3v3 tournaments, too.

Folder wrote:Personally I think it's OK to just let healers be healers in this. They don't really get a chance to shine a lot of the time - when's the last time you saw a priest or guard in KotH? I may be alone here though so more opinions needed. In a 2v2 you want a healer...that's part of the gameplay right?


Kind of what I was thinking earlier too..maybe you WANT someone on that class if you desire heals in your comp? Especially in a 3v3 it's easier to pop one healer, and there is no class stacking so it prevents multiple priests. I want every class to feel like they can be played. There are lots of things people haven't even tried yet. One of the perks of watching the fights is seeing how they actually work out so I have gathered data over the last several events I've been able to run. :)

Your Guardian did very well, no doubt. I was happy to see more priests and guards this time for sure. Again, the problem wasn't so much guards as it was Priests. Guards require many stats to be good so they come with more counterplay, whereas a Priest/Cleric is someone who can focus all of their stats strictly on int/agi/end/wis to allow a very tanky base char.

User avatar
Folder
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:04 am
Location: Texas

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Folder » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:44 am

Honzo wrote:
No. Take it to the simplest level. You'd get 6 heals TOTAL. 3 per head. Meaning 6 total for 2v2 and 9 total for 3v3. You can cast them any way you wish.


Oh, I gotcha that makes sense. I think if we decide to limit heals it should be per round, but the more I think about it the less I like limiting things. Just my opinion of course.
<Silhouette>

Thi
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:17 pm

Re: DISCUSSION for 2v2/3v3 Tournament

Postby Thi » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:37 am

I thought it was quite fun, for once priests got included into it and played a cool role.

Now of we are going to start limiting classes, unlimited leech is insane as well 30ish per hit is a heal per round plus heals from a priest/guard make it insane and then they will become the "new priest problem"

The way I see it, this is a survival event, so you are expected to bring healers into equation and let it play out, surely it drags fights but it's the nature of the beast I guess, my suggestion is, maybe run it with 2 staffers, one doing upper bracket and one doing losers bracket.

That's to say I enjoyed the vent yesterday, pretty fun seeing priests trying to help their team fight.
Thi
You can find me online on Lightning.


Return to “Archive Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests