PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

[Folder]

I say orcs/dwarves because both are 19 agi, 23 end for dwarves 22 for orcs. They are similar in melee because the HP outweighs the low AGI. There just aren't as many dwarves running around cause orcs hit harder I guess? I feel like dwarf is better than orc on paper but we haven't seen that manifest much yet.

In practice 19 agi dodge isn't so bad that those characters suck in group battles. I think orcs are often targeted by chanters no matter what and yeah they get roasted, but in my experience we will nearly always go for the low HP targets over anything unless we have a chanter and a low MR target.

Targets in group fights are based on 1) Div, 2) Magic Resist if a chanter is involved, 3) HP. From my perspective I've never ever thought "hit that 19 agi dude with 1300hp because he will dodge less", that character will nearly always live longer than an 8-900HP character.

I'm PvPing every day, I feel like I have a decent grasp on how its playing out.

Anyways an extra bonus to dodge is...maybe. +1 is hard for some classes though so I kinda think the better idea is a more balanced AGI stat.

[Thi]

This conversation is being derailed honestly, Terron you're rounding your every answer around the "halfling" argument.

I've put over 30 fights into test fighting Orcs (Killa/Mike) using Goblins (Slayer and Ninja) and Saurians (Zerker) on neutral div and 85% if not more of the fights the Goblins/Saurians lost and it wasn't a close fight, they usually end up with 300-500 HP.

I'd argue that agility is broken right now because it doesn't scale in the same pace as end/str gains do, meaning that the trade-off right now is so significant that equal strength fighters and a swing of 5 agi between endurance and agility makes the endurance player win likely 90% of the fights, this isn't a racial thing per say, it's stat balancing, HOs are not the only race ruling around, so are dwarves, people just realized that those two races are the "winners" by default on any 1v1 fight/event, so now there's a rush/craze of people leveling those races.

Now going back to NH initial post, I'd balance it out of agility, seems the "quickest" way to throw things into place, I don't think strength needs a change, it seems decent to me now, although I'd argue that some classes right now feel too overpowered, I think Cavaliers for example hit too hard considering the usefulness they already provide with Taunt / Shield Bash / HP Bonus.

As for HP Scaling, I kinda like the way it is and the diversity of the spectrum cause you can have anywhere from 850 to 1300 HP, meaning you can create classes for heavy hitting bosses, moshes, etc.

I'd also argue that agi needs a look into because for example the bonus right now is so small that a Dark Elf in pretty much all situations is a better everything than a Halfing, that +1agi meaning 2% extra dodge isn't anywhere worth the loss of 1 end and 2 str. So halfings have lost a niche unless for their high charisma, which would be very limiting to what they can be, thus why a couple months ago I said that anything above 23 agi might deserve an "edge" into dodge, otherwise it's worthless to have it in the first place, as well as it is to roll lings.

[Terron]

nitehawks formula showed that the lings dodge/hit rate is equivilent to 1.66 hits per a horcs 1, its an easy test and since ive been a game tester on multiple games i highly doubt its agi on this matter compared to relative hps. u want agi to be better but usually that entails horc users to endure miss miss miss miss miss POW! miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss POW! POW! etc and thats lame as shit for a gamer to watch. thats why i mostly play lings/high dex lol im just not siding with the dex>all theory. i love lings but they arent built for melee like a half orc and on the flip side a horc cant cast spells or be as diverse as a ling. have staff make a "fake test race" with 19 str 25 dex and 22 con and i bet the horc wont win them all or stat items to test it with another horc that elects 19 str , +6 dex ring just a thought.


edit: in most games ive tested the agility stat is the only constant because it doesn't matter because hps scale against magic users aswell, in this case im about 100% positive it is entirely the power of the str stat or the hps from end. also a 5 point dex spread hitting 1.66x to 1 is more than most games ive seen. it could also be how the damage scales per level per str or other str variables but it isnt agility.

if the str is scaling proportionately a ling would hypothetically hit 18 damage per swing while a half orc does 25 multiplied out by the hit rate and the ling is doing 29.88 damage for every 25 an orc does. the 17 con fails as the race isnt melee hardy. thus 1200 /30 means the ling needs to hit 40x to kill a horc. 800/25 is 32. advantage horc with only 1 variable HP

[NiteHawk]

miss miss miss miss miss POW! miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss POW! POW!

That is the difference. It's the difference between having a race that should be more 'random' but deal heavy damage on those hits vs a race you know that will often hit, but not as much difference. It's not just half orcs that are in question though obviously. You may not like that method of miss/miss/miss/POW but others might prefer heavy damage and random chances over a more steady characters. That is what choice is all about, that's what I do want. I for one prefer the heavy cannon type race for some scenarios, like slayers.

I don't want to make +1 points confusing and make them do different things, nor do I think they should either. It gets confusing that way. Changing the PVP value from 40% to 33% doesn't really solve the issue with AGI. It just means the battles will last longer, but overall the result of the fights will be the same.

But overall guys we are talking about AGI as a whole, not just two classes anyways.

This is the values that will be in place with the div changes. This is AGAINST DIVINITY so it's your bonus. 15% (which would be the max after the changes we talked about()

24 STR
Barbarian: 201-271 not DW... 221-298 DW
Assassin: 492-681 not DW,.. 541-749 DW
Knight: 195-264
Monk: 172-207.. RH is 2x.

18 STR
Barbarian: 151-203 not DW... 166-224 DW
Assassin: 368-511 not DW,.. 404-562 DW
Knight: 146-198
Monk: 129-155.. RH is 2x.


I am relaying this simply for data crunching . Looking at the damage formula it's not too terrible, though 24 str assassins and barbs seem to do some high damage. Though I guess its 15% more cause of div too. Maybe the classes themselves need a little change but thats for another topic I'd say as alot of these fights often are the same classes from what I can see. I can see that as a whole we might need to look at the damage values on a couple classes though.

I agree that they wouldn't win against 25 agi/22 end. We're coming to that point where I'd say END would make them too powerful (obviously) because having the dodge and alot of HP would make them overall too powerful.


And generally yeah, I also kind of wonder myself (and agree with the AGI). It's 30% HR vs 50% hr. This means that a ling will hit them half the time, or about 2/4 while a HO will do around 1.2/4. Lowering it further might make HOs miss too often too. I can understand increasing it a little if that is the case, but I wouldn't go as far as doing 4% per agi point for example, people are saying then you want HO to hit 20% of the time and lings to hit 60% of the time. That to me is a CRAZY difference.

Maybe it's simply the fact that HO has that 24 STR and it should be lowered again to 23 STR. But that only removes about 8 average damage, or 16 average damage on a slayer (due to /hide then attack is two turns.). I don't really think 8 damage is going to fix the problem but it would be a help on 'fixing things'. Something else would also have to be adjusted on top of it. But I feel that 23STR/19AGI isn't worth it VS 23STR/22AGI class, reason we gave HO 24STR/19AGI. Obv eamples here use the +1 in STR.. SO maybe it's okay and other things need adjusting as I stated.


I do want to see if there is another way though. I want HOs to obviously miss more, but missing ALL THE TIME is bad. I'd rather solve this another way if possible. 30% to 50% is a good difference I feel.. If I HAVE too, maybe 2.5% or 3% maximum, but somethin else I think needs to be in place so that the AGI loss isn't great. People NEED to feel like they are hitting... People WILL complain they miss alot. Even though they might deal tons more damage and in reality, they might be a better race, but alot of negatives is bad. Obviously though the 24 vs 19 agi scenario is not a common one, and It would most likely be around 21-22 AGI for alot of races vs the HO, which I can understand why 3% would be 'ok'.

It's like the whole quest system where it's better to have quest require 10 items that drop at 20% droprate vs 1 item that drops at 2% droprate. You feel the progression with the first one, yet they will typically both require the same amount of time on average to run.

[Thi]

Well, honestly tweaking the agi seems like a quick way to go around it and doesn't seem overly complex to do or rollback if necessary, we have been at the current system for a couple months now, so change it and lets see how it reacts for the upcoming weeks and assess the results?

[Terron]

i agree with you on the agility i think its fine. at this point balancing stats/altering the hp scale seems almost more effective. but at the same time mage bait becomes even more so. people are pushing for a balance to push 35-38 in stat points(combined str/end) to be more equal to a high 47, which on the flip side is as ignorant as a saurian caster user pushing to make his 14 int closer to a gnomes 22 in relative output.

i mean there is an option to run mage heavy in events so you know the half orcs will likely be toast, but instead you equip and send in the almighty toddler with his sharpened toothpick sword and enchanted turtle shell plate-mail, donning his sea shell shield. which is completely fine, because it might be a mage/caster you fight and not a horc warrior, just atm it isn't.

my only real discrepancy is in the fact players are wanting races in which they are trying to utilize the worst 2 stats(1 or both being under 20) and want them to compete vs a race that is utilizing its best 2 stats. i would say it should never go above a 25/75 doesn't seem right seeing as a half orc sucks at everything else.

[Folder]

Let's use zerkers here. No +1, dodge reduction evens out.

Orc
24 STR, 22 END. 1320HP.
236 AD, 259.5 when DW

Ling
18 STR, 17 END. 907HP
177 AD, 195 when DW

The ling will need to hit the orc 8 times to kill it. 7 times if dual wielding. The orc needs to hit the ling 4 times to kill it, with or without DW. On average it will take 17 attacks for the ling to kill the orc. 15 if dual wielding. On average it will take the orc 13 attacks to kill the ling. The orc can wear a shield and still kill the ling in the same number of attacks, which further skews things a bit and I don't really have the math for that one unfortunately. This is discounting all absorbs and such, but those likely favor the orc a bit as they will require more hits to kill. This is also not taking into account FLURRY, which should benefit the ling more because of higher hit rate.

That actually sounds decent on paper, so what's going on ingame? I feel like something isn't translating here when it should be. In these averages the orc is winning, which is correct imo, but it's also fairly close and in my experience so far we aren't seeing that. What am I missing here guys?

[Terron]

i'm not implying the whole system is perfect by any means. the fact that if the characters were set at 1 million times normal life, the half orc would lose by a massive amount. that in itself proves the dodge is working quite admirably. the hp scale is too vast, or the relative power of str is too great, or armor doesn't cut enough damage but that's separate entirely.

i'm leaning towards the endurance on this one cuz after playing multiple classes and races the half orcs are not putting out the same DPS as a dexy race, they miss alot. they tend to excel on monsters below their own level which is slower exp.

when a 17 con race gets 30 hps and a 24 con barb is recieving 57-60 its a little too vast. i think the cause and effect would be better if 17 con(non barb) pushed to about 35 hps and a 24 con barb pushed a max of around 53-55. this also lightens the grapplehold endurance has as a stat and players may opt for a -1 if the scale is less.

but you also have to realise that changing hp scale, drastically influences mages power and then will need a boost in MR which entails more and more innaffects.

edit:@ NH dropping the relative pvp hit rate to 33 does more than just let the fight last longer. the relative breakpoints and rounding numbers are less of a factor. orcs killing an enemy in 4 stam is lowered aswell. considering the 20 point difference in % would render 19 agi with approximately 25% chance to hit the 24 agi character. .25*.25*.25*.25 is extremely low odds. allowing factors like potions to be more effectual. im not really for changing it because you can move it 100's of time but sooner or later you have to cement it down and look at different factors.

[Atticuz]

I'm totally down with any agi/hitrate/dodge buff's Do it NH do it

Give monks their hit rate back and all will be right in the world

You guys crunch the numbers and ill mooch the buff's

[NiteHawk]

Let's use zerkers here. No +1, dodge reduction evens out.

Orc
24 STR, 22 END. 1320HP.
236 AD, 259.5 when DW

Ling
18 STR, 17 END. 907HP
177 AD, 195 when DW

The ling will need to hit the orc 8 times to kill it. 7 times if dual wielding. The orc needs to hit the ling 4 times to kill it, with or without DW. On average it will take 17 attacks for the ling to kill the orc. 15 if dual wielding. On average it will take the orc 13 attacks to kill the ling. The orc can wear a shield and still kill the ling in the same number of attacks, which further skews things a bit and I don't really have the math for that one unfortunately. This is discounting all absorbs and such, but those likely favor the orc a bit as they will require more hits to kill. This is also not taking into account FLURRY, which should benefit the ling more because of higher hit rate.

That actually sounds decent on paper, so what's going on ingame? I feel like something isn't translating here when it should be. In these averages the orc is winning, which is correct imo, but it's also fairly close and in my experience so far we aren't seeing that. What am I missing here guys?

Remember that the damage I gave it lower than what it is currently since we are changing things, and is based on DIV. The higher the damage right now, the more the HO will benefit from it over a Ling. We do also need to take into regard ARMOR eventually. Not sure if we should just ignore armor for now, suppose we can.. But I do think it plays a part.

Anyways, The values I get are:

HO attacking LING
907HP / 236 = 3.8 successful attacks
907HP / 259.6 = 3.5 successful attacks

Ling attacking HO
1320HP / 177 = 7.5 successful attacks
1320HP / 195 = 6.8 successful attacks

Already double the amount of attacks. However this would be incorrect to say these are the proper values. I made a small program that took my dodge formula and ran it 1mil times to get a sure 'average'. Now to add in dodge. Ling has 24 agi with default 18 STR as an example, and HO will use its default 19 AGI with 24 STR.


HO attacking Ling with above stats:
Not DW = 13.5 attacks to kill
DW = 13.3 attacks to kill.

Ling attacking HO with above stats:
Not DW = 16 attacks to kill
DW = 14 attacks to kill


Buuuuut, armor should play a part! This is OAD level armor around for med classes.


HO DW attacking Ling with shield:
Not DW = 17.9 attacks to kill
DW = 16.2 attacks to kill.

HO DW attacking Ling with no shield:
Not DW = 16.97 attacks to kill
DW = 14.92 attacks to kill.

Now we start seeing the effects of armor! Because of the half negations or full negations, it starts to vary a little bit more. Let's see what lings can do.

Ling attacking HO with shield:
Not DW = 19.54 attacks to kill
DW = 17.9 attacks to kill

Ling attacking HO without shield:
Not DW = 18.24 attacks to kill
DW = 16.71 attacks to kill


----

You can see that lings are normally under here. 2-3+ attacks goes a long way I feel... HOWEVER, with big damage and lower AGI comes more randomness. Though the above are the averages, it more looks like this:

HO DW attacking Ling with shield:
Not DW = 13-21 attacks to kill
DW = 12-20 attacks to kill

HO DW attacking Ling with no shield:
Not DW = 12-20 attacks to kill
DW = 11-19 attacks to kill

Ling attacking HO with shield:
Not DW = 17-21 attacks to kill
DW = 15-19 attacks to kill

Ling attacking HO without shield:
Not DW = 16-20 attacks to kill
DW = 14-18 attacks to kill


---

The answer to 'why it feels that HO are better'. They obviously are even without the randomization, but because they can actually kill lings in alot lower hits sometimes, it means that you get the false idea that HOs are WAY better. Those these two random fights as an example (not related to anything)

Out of 1mil fights, I killed you between 12-20 attacks to kill.
Out of 1mil fights, You killed me between 15-17 attacks to kill.

They are BOTH the same in terms of average, however, I 100% believe that people would FEEL that HOs are far better because they sometimes dish out those 12 round kills. I can't really change that feeling, these are actual numbers and actual formulas though.

However, we can OBVIOUSLY see why lings are worse with these formulas, even without the randomness.


Lower the AGI further (to me) would mean that battles woudl feel like you NEVER hit. So lowering it from 40% to 33% I think is a bad idea. It already is generally on average, higher than normal.


I will come up with something next post though, bear with me, separating this cause its long as shit.