PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

[JadeFalcon]

I mean tbh the race balance here is a lot closer than it ever was in rok and that showed. It would be great to actually see what 25ers there are and what people have gotten to 25 recently.

Even with mr being touchy it caused somewhat of a rock paper scissor. Pure melee with under 15 wis usually beats melee with 19+ wis. Anything with -19 wis usually loses to caster. Caster loses to any melee with +19 wis.

Hopefully we can find balance without losing too much of that rock paper scissor feel.

This.
I feel very strong in my saurian slayer, but enter a bloody chanter, and i scream like i panicked child.
However, same enchanter versus my miserably guardian.. and guess what, i will bet on my guardian. Which would be toast versus my slayer.

[NiteHawk]

Well I want to try what was talked about in MR which uses only wisdom to base your affect rate. Their INT wouldn't effect it but instead would effect damage more, making 20 int casters a thing. Instead all spells would be based on lets say the current 23int.

Right now if you have 20 int, you lose out on like 20% pierce rate lets say. That's why it's worthless. Not only do you fizzle more, you deal less damage, and you struggle to pierce.

I do agree though, but the variation is far too much. However, a 10-15 wisdom character is going to struggle regardless, though it shouldn't be near 90% pierce rate, its too high. Right now its between 10% to 75% (23 wis gnome sorc, gets more the elemental at 24 wis by a 1%).

Basing it off AGI, 40% is the average obviously. Typically it goes 30%-50% at max for dodging or hitting.

Probably spells can start around 20% and go up to maybe around 60%.. So your resist would be based on your class, wisdom, and staff itself. It's not going to be using the same formula I think, just a tweaked version of the current. Some classes might be adjusted though in terms of MR. I think theres a problem currently that its hard to balance when theres too many variables. I.E. gnomes have lets say 20% MR and then 25% for the class itself. 45% total for a gnome sorc as the max, its kind of lacking on others there. from 45% bonus to -7.5% is a varation and too much to balance.

[anthriel]

Well I want to try what was talked about in MR which uses only wisdom to base your affect rate. Their INT wouldn't effect it but instead would effect damage more, making 20 int casters a thing. Instead all spells would be based on lets say the current 23int.

Right now if you have 20 int, you lose out on like 20% pierce rate lets say. That's why it's worthless. Not only do you fizzle more, you deal less damage, and you struggle to pierce.

I do agree though, but the variation is far too much. However, a 10-15 wisdom character is going to struggle regardless, though it shouldn't be near 90% pierce rate, its too high. Right now its between 10% to 75% (23 wis gnome sorc, gets more the elemental at 24 wis by a 1%).

Basing it off AGI, 40% is the average obviously. Typically it goes 30%-50% at max for dodging or hitting.

Probably spells can start around 20% and go up to maybe around 60%.. So your resist would be based on your class, wisdom, and staff itself. It's not going to be using the same formula I think, just a tweaked version of the current. Some classes might be adjusted though in terms of MR. I think theres a problem currently that its hard to balance when theres too many variables. I.E. gnomes have lets say 20% MR and then 25% for the class itself. 45% total for a gnome sorc as the max, its kind of lacking on others there. from 45% bonus to -7.5% is a varation and too much to balance.

Does this new MR system you mention mean effectively that INT will only affect spell damage and not penetration/affect?... Therefore a 10 INT spellcaster will penetrate/affect with non-damage related spells (eg FF, Sap, Blind etc) approx as much as as a 23 INT spellcaster casting against the same enemy of X wisdom (apart from slightly higher fizzle rate being born by 10 INT spellcaster)? ... If so I can see a lot of low INT Druids being made lol.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your MR description... And/or if I should be posting this Q in the MR thread instead... It all seems to be blurring into 1 issue lol

[NiteHawk]

Well I want to try what was talked about in MR which uses only wisdom to base your affect rate. Their INT wouldn't effect it but instead would effect damage more, making 20 int casters a thing. Instead all spells would be based on lets say the current 23int.

Right now if you have 20 int, you lose out on like 20% pierce rate lets say. That's why it's worthless. Not only do you fizzle more, you deal less damage, and you struggle to pierce.

I do agree though, but the variation is far too much. However, a 10-15 wisdom character is going to struggle regardless, though it shouldn't be near 90% pierce rate, its too high. Right now its between 10% to 75% (23 wis gnome sorc, gets more the elemental at 24 wis by a 1%).

Basing it off AGI, 40% is the average obviously. Typically it goes 30%-50% at max for dodging or hitting.

Probably spells can start around 20% and go up to maybe around 60%.. So your resist would be based on your class, wisdom, and staff itself. It's not going to be using the same formula I think, just a tweaked version of the current. Some classes might be adjusted though in terms of MR. I think theres a problem currently that its hard to balance when theres too many variables. I.E. gnomes have lets say 20% MR and then 25% for the class itself. 45% total for a gnome sorc as the max, its kind of lacking on others there. from 45% bonus to -7.5% is a varation and too much to balance.

Does this new MR system you mention mean effectively that INT will only affect spell damage and not penetration/affect?... Therefore a 10 INT spellcaster will penetrate/affect with non-damage related spells (eg FF, Sap, Blind etc) approx as much as as a 23 INT spellcaster casting against the same enemy of X wisdom (apart from slightly higher fizzle rate being born by 10 INT spellcaster)? ... If so I can see a lot of low INT Druids being made lol.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your MR description... And/or if I should be posting this Q in the MR thread instead... It all seems to be blurring into 1 issue lol

Yeah no worries. The MR poll was mostly to do with two things, this idea with INT vs MR and just a revised MR. However, I really want to try this idea out and if it doesn't work I'll rollback and try something different.

Most druids made aren't really made for being able to penetrate with ray anyways or in care with int. 10 int sap/blind/etc would probably only last 5 seconds, Your damage would be extremely low though, and your fizzle rate would be generally higher even with lower spells, probably around 10% for cure/beam/etc. Blast and the like however with 10int you're looking at 25-35% fizzle rate, that alone is pretty bad but the system isn't designed and won't be for picking the lowest INT. Most spells themselves are lower damage then the high physical damage classes but it will still allow 20 int to be decent at their roles.

Right now lower INT characters is like putting -2 AGI on a character per point loss in relations. Even if that were to be lowered it's still a loss and no one would want to do it. No one makes -1 AGI characters even if its 2% less agi only, same applies for most sorcs/necros.

[daedroth]

I do not think WIS working as a kind of mental AGL would work so well.
Have WIS act like a shield/armour when it comes to magical damage (as in it deflects magical attacks; spell has no effect, but it is rare) it will however reduce damage more.
But... not sure how the status effect magic works to make that idea suitable.
So if the WIS reducing damage more than unnafecting is what your saying, then I am for that.
Anyway, thats my opinion.

[anthriel]

Well I want to try what was talked about in MR which uses only wisdom to base your affect rate. Their INT wouldn't effect it but instead would effect damage more, making 20 int casters a thing. Instead all spells would be based on lets say the current 23int.

Right now if you have 20 int, you lose out on like 20% pierce rate lets say. That's why it's worthless. Not only do you fizzle more, you deal less damage, and you struggle to pierce.

I do agree though, but the variation is far too much. However, a 10-15 wisdom character is going to struggle regardless, though it shouldn't be near 90% pierce rate, its too high. Right now its between 10% to 75% (23 wis gnome sorc, gets more the elemental at 24 wis by a 1%).

Basing it off AGI, 40% is the average obviously. Typically it goes 30%-50% at max for dodging or hitting.

Probably spells can start around 20% and go up to maybe around 60%.. So your resist would be based on your class, wisdom, and staff itself. It's not going to be using the same formula I think, just a tweaked version of the current. Some classes might be adjusted though in terms of MR. I think theres a problem currently that its hard to balance when theres too many variables. I.E. gnomes have lets say 20% MR and then 25% for the class itself. 45% total for a gnome sorc as the max, its kind of lacking on others there. from 45% bonus to -7.5% is a varation and too much to balance.

Does this new MR system you mention mean effectively that INT will only affect spell damage and not penetration/affect?... Therefore a 10 INT spellcaster will penetrate/affect with non-damage related spells (eg FF, Sap, Blind etc) approx as much as as a 23 INT spellcaster casting against the same enemy of X wisdom (apart from slightly higher fizzle rate being born by 10 INT spellcaster)? ... If so I can see a lot of low INT Druids being made lol.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your MR description... And/or if I should be posting this Q in the MR thread instead... It all seems to be blurring into 1 issue lol

Yeah no worries. The MR poll was mostly to do with two things, this idea with INT vs MR and just a revised MR. However, I really want to try this idea out and if it doesn't work I'll rollback and try something different.

Most druids made aren't really made for being able to penetrate with ray anyways or in care with int. 10 int sap/blind/etc would probably only last 5 seconds, Your damage would be extremely low though, and your fizzle rate would be generally higher even with lower spells, probably around 10% for cure/beam/etc. Blast and the like however with 10int you're looking at 25-35% fizzle rate, that alone is pretty bad but the system isn't designed and won't be for picking the lowest INT. Most spells themselves are lower damage then the high physical damage classes but it will still allow 20 int to be decent at their roles.

Right now lower INT characters is like putting -2 AGI on a character per point loss in relations. Even if that were to be lowered it's still a loss and no one would want to do it. No one makes -1 AGI characters even if its 2% less agi only, same applies for most sorcs/necros.

Ah ok so if I understand you correctly - with non-damage related spells (eg Faeriefire) under the new system you want to try... these may still penetrate just as often (apart from fizzle) regardless of higher or lower INT but the duration of say a 20 INT faerie fire will still be notably longer than a 10 INT faerie fire?

I wasn't really concerned re Blast/Ray etc cos their damage will be reduced for lower INT... It was more for the whether higher INT has any difference on the effect (ie either penetration or duration) of non damage spells where the enemy either gets their status modified or not

[NiteHawk]

Does this new MR system you mention mean effectively that INT will only affect spell damage and not penetration/affect?... Therefore a 10 INT spellcaster will penetrate/affect with non-damage related spells (eg FF, Sap, Blind etc) approx as much as as a 23 INT spellcaster casting against the same enemy of X wisdom (apart from slightly higher fizzle rate being born by 10 INT spellcaster)? ... If so I can see a lot of low INT Druids being made lol.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your MR description... And/or if I should be posting this Q in the MR thread instead... It all seems to be blurring into 1 issue lol

Yeah no worries. The MR poll was mostly to do with two things, this idea with INT vs MR and just a revised MR. However, I really want to try this idea out and if it doesn't work I'll rollback and try something different.

Most druids made aren't really made for being able to penetrate with ray anyways or in care with int. 10 int sap/blind/etc would probably only last 5 seconds, Your damage would be extremely low though, and your fizzle rate would be generally higher even with lower spells, probably around 10% for cure/beam/etc. Blast and the like however with 10int you're looking at 25-35% fizzle rate, that alone is pretty bad but the system isn't designed and won't be for picking the lowest INT. Most spells themselves are lower damage then the high physical damage classes but it will still allow 20 int to be decent at their roles.

Right now lower INT characters is like putting -2 AGI on a character per point loss in relations. Even if that were to be lowered it's still a loss and no one would want to do it. No one makes -1 AGI characters even if its 2% less agi only, same applies for most sorcs/necros.

Ah ok so if I understand you correctly - with non-damage related spells (eg Faeriefire) under the new system you want to try... these may still penetrate just as often (apart from fizzle) regardless of higher or lower INT but the duration of say a 20 INT faerie fire will still be notably longer than a 10 INT faerie fire?

I wasn't really concerned re Blast/Ray etc cos their damage will be reduced for lower INT... It was more for the whether higher INT has any difference on the effect (ie either penetration or duration) of non damage spells where the enemy either gets their status modified or not

All spells will probably penetrate the same as they are, except there won't be such a low min and a high max. It'll be easier to balance and make all races useful as casters, you'll probably get interesting race/class combos, but still a gnome sorc will have high resistance to any spell, or a druid since they have high wis, etc etc. But yeah, low int also means faster durations etc. So that's no good for spells, but having 20int is still acceptable.

However, with the change too, I can actually make debuff spells have a harder penetration if need be with no worries, so FF/etc can have proper resists, lets say they could be 5-15% harder to penetrate overall. It's still up for debate on those spells but that will probably come after the MR changes and we see how everything fairs.

INT effects alot of things and I don't think it needs to do penetration. It effects, damage, duration, the effect on buffs, debuffs, etc. Unless they are static debuffs, which most spells aren't, you will have lower durations and lower effects. So that SS with 23 int might be 5 minutes and 50 armor, or with 20 int might be 4 minutes 40 seconds and 47 armor. etc.

I think the game can very much be balanced with these changes, and make alot of interesting setups we don't see now.

[Mujahideen]

HO vs Ling:
HO Wins: 624577 (62.5%)
Liing Wins: 375423 (37.5%)

HO vs Saurian. I was half asleep when I wrote the above comment, I get yee for comparison.

HO Wins: 436309 (43.6%)
Saurian Wins: 563691 (56.4%)

I think this is about right, when you take in consideration the fact that HOs and lizards are magic food, but I would like to see HOs have a slight edge over lizards or else why would you pick a HO?

[Lateralus]

HO vs Ling:
HO Wins: 624577 (62.5%)
Liing Wins: 375423 (37.5%)

HO vs Saurian. I was half asleep when I wrote the above comment, I get yee for comparison.

HO Wins: 436309 (43.6%)
Saurian Wins: 563691 (56.4%)

I think this is about right, when you take in consideration the fact that HOs and lizards are magic food, but I would like to see HOs have a slight edge over lizards or else why would you pick a HO?

HO and lizard are equally magic food however HO have about 200 more hp that casters have to burn through. So they would have an edge on lizard in the sense. I'm not sure then why you would give them the head to head edge as well?

[Mujahideen]

HO vs Ling:
HO Wins: 624577 (62.5%)
Liing Wins: 375423 (37.5%)

HO vs Saurian. I was half asleep when I wrote the above comment, I get yee for comparison.

HO Wins: 436309 (43.6%)
Saurian Wins: 563691 (56.4%)

I think this is about right, when you take in consideration the fact that HOs and lizards are magic food, but I would like to see HOs have a slight edge over lizards or else why would you pick a HO?

HO and lizard are equally magic food however HO have about 200 more hp that casters have to burn through. So they would have an edge on lizard in the sense. I'm not sure then why you would give them the head to head edge as well?

But what good is that 200 hp against chanters if they still lose? They are both chanter food.