Race Stat Changes

[NiteHawk]

its the exponential gain that has MR screwed. 20% bonus to goblins so they can fit in? elves with 0? clerics with mr penalties...?

Literally goblins are really the only ones that really see a heavier effect of about +3 wisdom with 17 wisdom. Most other races have 0% to 5% is like adding a 2-3% overall percent resistance to wisdom. Doesn't change much IMO and it's mostly based on wisdom.

Goblins are meant to be a resistance type fighter race, and they will continue to be anyways. It does need lowering as I talked about though. Yeah there will be class MR, classes like druids for example are simply too OP as they obviously focus Wisdom to maximum, making them really good at physical but then also magical. Granted, there could be some changes, but they'll continue to exist.

it should be added as racial bonuses (if your race has 5% mr it just receives 5% less damage from magic) and bonuses from armor . make armor have 2 stats AC and SR (i.e cloth adds 9 armor and 25 SR(spell resistance which offers mitigation identical to the way armor affects melee.)) melee characters can choose heavy armor which offers less SR or choose a lighter armor version which increases SR. im pretty sure ive posted this before..

Having racial actually add 5% Mr for example is probably a good idea rather then a multiplier which might help balance reasons (So as you say it would add a static value instead of a multiplier which could help.) However, with SR on armor I think you add a huge balance issue and you'd have to completely revise the way characters work. You actually grant medium class users like slayers or barbarians SR just because they use medium armor. Paladins should have the choice of being good with both using higher wisdom (at least thats what i believe) but I think this would make it worse as obviously heavy armor would make them weaker to spells.

[NiteHawk]

Actually maybe something similar to classes dodge might work here.

I.E. gnomes and lings still have max of 21 agi and 23 agi, BUT when dodging they have +1 agi, similar to monks dodge bonus but for races. So similar to the small stat but kinda in formula I guess.

I.e. gnomes would have 21 agi when attacking but have the boost of 22 agi when dodging. A middle ground might be good cause 25 agi lings to me 'worries' me but a halver of what I talked about might be OK.

I like it.

That is what some of us suggested to make lings and gnomes get to the game.

Maybe +2 dodge agi pve and +1 dodge agi pvp?

That's a possibility but I'm not sure it is needed as they already start with higher AGI in PVE anyways. Might be more confusing if all the hidden values are random too and if we do use hidden stats it is good to try to reduce the confusion.

[Terron]

changing armor to reflect magic mitigation would cause more problems temporarily. it should. but in the end its easier to balance. and better for future oad gear because the next piece of armor can gain 1 or the other not just 1 ac. the reason i even suggested it is because the game sits relatively magicless at the moment. it isnt magic heavy at all. leaves plenty of float room for testing behind the scenes or for players to help you. the system of int vs wis, sr and ac , worked very well on my pen and paper rpg. the agility system inplace is similar to my paper rpg i just gave bonuses/penalties for size. i think the only factor thats different from my paper rpg and this game is rolled stats vs p p p x x x, and exponential damage multipliers.

currently noone would pick cloth wearing warriors because there is no reason to. same reason they run around with 10 wis freely.

ill pull up some of the classes my friends and i created, outfit some of the spells for ember and post them a bit later. because i feel the outlying problem is the scarcity of magic. i really feel sitting ingame with 10 melee classes and 10 magic classes would help the game far more than anything else.

[Dan]

Actually maybe something similar to classes dodge might work here.

I.E. gnomes and lings still have max of 21 agi and 23 agi, BUT when dodging they have +1 agi, similar to monks dodge bonus but for races. So similar to the small stat but kinda in formula I guess.

I.e. gnomes would have 21 agi when attacking but have the boost of 22 agi when dodging. A middle ground might be good cause 25 agi lings to me 'worries' me but a halver of what I talked about might be OK.

I like it.

That is what some of us suggested to make lings and gnomes get to the game.

Maybe +2 dodge agi pve and +1 dodge agi pvp?

That's a possibility but I'm not sure it is needed as they already start with higher AGI in PVE anyways. Might be more confusing if all the hidden values are random too and if we do use hidden stats it is good to try to reduce the confusion.

What about a text command that shows your "complete stats", like pet info does? Like natural and (after equip) stats. Plus pve/pvp atack and dodge agi.

[NiteHawk]

changing armor to reflect magic mitigation would cause more problems temporarily. it should. but in the end its easier to balance. and better for future oad gear because the next piece of armor can gain 1 or the other not just 1 ac. the reason i even suggested it is because the game sits relatively magicless at the moment. it isnt magic heavy at all. leaves plenty of float room for testing behind the scenes or for players to help you. the system of int vs wis, sr and ac , worked very well on my pen and paper rpg. the agility system inplace is similar to my paper rpg i just gave bonuses/penalties for size. i think the only factor thats different from my paper rpg and this game is rolled stats vs p p p x x x, and exponential damage multipliers.

currently noone would pick cloth wearing warriors because there is no reason to. same reason they run around with 10 wis freely.

I could see the mitigation actually being apart of armor but I'm wondering in a game like this that there actually should be heavy armor with mitigation but lower AC rather than cloth armor being the only high damage mitigation. Obviously cloth would have higher then heavy if this was the case, but I don't see any paladins using cloth armor and losing 50% absorption 'chance' for spell mitigation unless the mitigation was high which it probably wouldn't be super high anyways.. If it was high the issue obviously would be with players swapping gear which would most likely be a terrible thing if that was the case. Right now I believe with 20 wis you negate around 10% damage which is a fair amount since you can unaffect fully and absorption is often around 50% unless you get lucky and are using a shield for the 100%'s.

What about a text command that shows your "complete stats", like pet info does? Like natural and (after equip) stats. Plus pve/pvp atack and dodge agi.

I still think its starting to get overly complicated and honestly the game needs to be generally simple to understand for the most case. Having complete stats info could be a thing to see proper stats specially with other classes but I think +1 dodge agi is enough to start.

[anthriel]

The only 2nd thought I had re +1 dodge Agi on "little people" is that with gnomes you could technically +1 endurance and effectivly get a better than best elf sorcerer for the most part (ie 22 dodge Agi, 18 End and better int/wis... Only niche left for elf sorcerer to be better is if they choose to +1 End themselves ).

Therefore to address this, it possible to restrict the "little people dodge bonus" to only applying if Lings/gnomes keep 17end (ie don't bulk up)... Perhaps instead of a racial bonus for Lings/gnomes it could therefore apply to any race who decided to keep 17 end or under (i can't really see it being abused cos what user of other races in their right mind would want to choose 17 end / less HP willingly lol)... I know it does potentially complicate the hidden stats somewhat (which NH doesn't like) but it is a possible imbalance issue between gnome/elf mages that occurred to me so I wanted to point it out in case others had any ideas.

[Styx]

Proposal 15 *thumbsup*



Let's give it a try, see how it works. Then we can find out. All else change it by racial adjustments.

[Lateralus]

I really dont think we need to over complicate systems with mr and agi attached to armors. Much of the draw is approach-ability i understand depth but if the game is overly complicated its going to be unapproachable (thats not even considering how hard it would be to balance) we have a 20+ balancing post on over something that should be pretty simple and you wanna add 2-3 more layers on top of that mulitplying the complexity?


I like that you are contributing but I have not seen you in game for quite a while im not really sure you actually understand how the current balance is. You keep saying casters are under repped which i get but the more barbs, slayers, ninjas, knights etc there are means chanters/necros actually dominate more. I really dont think casters are in that bad of a place. yes penetration took a hit but casters still dominate in their situations.


I really dont think we need to over complicate this stuff things are not super outta wack and I dont think we need to change the whole game with complicated systems to find some kind of balance.

I think its ok to take small steps like changing a few races stats and then look at the next problem like how int matters on heal or adding spell damage to weapons etc...

If we try to approach every single aspect at once we are never going to get anything done tbh i know we wanna get this stat thing right but these are not huge changes they are just minor tweaks I am not sure why its taking this long no one is every going to agree on everything but I think we can find some kind of balance. The good thing is nitehawk is an active dev if shits outta balance after this its not like this was our one shot, we will just make another adjustment no big deal...


I really think we need to move this along we are very close and as many have stated they have halted leveling until something is finalized.

[Terron]

LAT,

an SR system isnt complicated lol. its already written ingame(minus armor desc changes). hence your armor code with a different precursor. the ability to change any aspect seperately is much easier to balance than a multiplication equation with 3 tiers. hence why elf has 0 mr due to 21 wis and goblins have 20 mr because of a crap 16/17. clerics have - mr so they need max wis for pvp. on melee damage you have ability, weapon, and str multiplication tiers pumping strength to the next level. i see this easy. i have built games and playtested for mmo's this isnt out of my scope of understanding. anyone can use a calculator and understand the law of averages.(nitehawk gives the formulas freely which is a +1 for him)

these are all little nuances of an imperfect system. if you dont care than you dont. i was offering up a good system i have used on a similar game. i can tell you personally only care for the creme of the crop builds and dont really care for 144 character choices. i ofcourse am thinking ahead and offering a free outlook. MR is fine because the game is 65% lizard and horc and Chanters own them. i do actually gather intel before i just run my fingers across keys(my mouf).

be that as it may the game runs smooth enough and it is exciting to play at times. i do however enjoy playing rare characters and weird stat characters, i like to explore limitations and max diversity. so when i say MR or agi dun wuk wight, or hip joints are whack-a-mole(gnome) it doesn't always entail cookie cutter vs cookie cutter vs cookie cutter. as a gamer and playtester i am always looking for the perfect game.

[anthriel]

I see both sides of argument. On one hand I appreciate that Lat just wants to get changes in quickly and do so at a more incremental/manageable rate. This is practical. But I do think that in trying to get this accomplished, his consistent posts effecively saying "calm down, all is well" can be perceived as "shut downs" of ideas and could possibly discourage the culture of ppl caring enough to make future contributions on MBs (which was an issue earlier in this thread)

I really like Terron's ideas and think his aims to change stuff more could unlock a lot of potential in the game. However we probably do need to move slower in order for community to 'catch up' and agree to any bigger changes along the way. Shrugs I see 22 pages of discussion as a good thing, not a bad one. Better to have a game where ppl care enough about the game to post, than one where ppl cbb posting cos they know what certain ppl are going to say back anyway.