Few concerns

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NiteHawk
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Re: Few concerns

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:28 pm

Terron wrote:on another note:

i noticed today that my 20 wisdom gnome thief resists about 8% puca beams and other magical attacks like cultists.
now i played a similar character before the update (22wis gnome thief) and it resisted prolly 85-90/100. i realize 90% resists was laughably too high. but in the current, magical creatures just rip you to shreds making choosing mr worthless pve.


20 wisdom is 64% MR (on a thief) which isn't terrible in terms of their hit rate on you, which is about 36%. Level adds or removes 2.5% per level though too, so if they are level 24 and you are lower level, it might be a little lower MR.

Anyways for hide simply being removed when drinking a potion I can agree with that.


I do agree with some of the issues, but the coding takes a lot of work to do so things get added slowly. I think one of the bigger issues is pretty much nothing to really do at level 25 though, bar getting items and some PVP. There should be things for solo players to do and whatnot too.


anthriel wrote:I've actually always wondered why NH seems to support the existing structured time system. Yes I know players like to be able to know when to gather to do stuff but there's ways of doing this that imho escapes the "same sh*t diff day" feeling. For example:

1. Randomise all OAD spawn times. Have a soothsayer mob(s) who you can do a quick random quest for (eg gather 5 randomized items, changes each reset) to tell you when the OAD(s) will spawn that day. This could lead to opportunities for ppl who are actually online and active when others aren't. It also means ppl can actually have a chance to experience all the build content available. Tho ultimately, while it makes better use of existing build, it's still not entirely fixing the problem once ppl have tried everything and new build is slower than demand.



Pretty much as you said it, a lot of people got annoyed about random times. In the end people stopped bothering doing the OAD in certain cases because they were too annoyed to get a party ready (specially a larger party) to find that it's not ready yet etc. People seemed to like to be able to know when to prep etc. The item idea could work maybe on smaller 2-4 OAD requirement players though, not the heavier ones really due to requirements. I'd love to get in some more oads that require less people though and we could test with a few OADs and see how it works, but I don't think all OADs need to be the same in regards to how it works. Maybe others will have something more about this.

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Re: Few concerns

Postby Terron » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:50 pm

if there is enough content the set times wont be that bad, but that would only balance out when theres like 40 oads not 8. the relevance to that is there would be some sort of actual trade value for items. this would be further heightened if the spread between white/green items were pushed away from blue/purple/orange.

one way to randomize the oads w/o a system wide oad revamp would be just to randomize the oads within the current set times.
one day mines is at 4 pm seta at 7 and thanny at 9 the next day mines is 1 am thanny at 4pm seta at 9pm. can keep everything the exact same timeframe just the oads spawn at a different time.

All the oads spawn should be announced via world(like dragons)
-one change is these "oad shouts" should stay visible on alert channel. no idea how many times i miss the messages while im running around.


did the mr not vary by level before update? cuz the gnome with 22 wis was untouchable by magic basically from level 16+
i pretty much did 16-25 solely on pucas cuz thieves skip them alot and i cant play at reset so most of the game is robbed before i even have a chance. this is also why robbing exp should be very high. so im kinda disappointed by robbing exp dropping. trails gave 120k last night and 70k today. however, that aside, i can see why pucas are blowing me away now.
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Re: Few concerns

Postby anthriel » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Terron wrote:
one way to randomize the oads w/o a system wide oad revamp would be just to randomize the oads within the current set times.
one day mines is at 4 pm seta at 7 and thanny at 9 the next day mines is 1 am thanny at 4pm seta at 9pm. can keep everything the exact same timeframe just the oads spawn at a different time.


This seems like it could be a good idea to give more variety in gaming experience and allow ppl to experience previously inaccessible content. That way ppl who want to gather with a party at certain time will still have something to do, but it won't be necessarily the same thing every day.

Adding a few world spawning OAD bosses in addition to the current system probably couldn't hurt too (to incentivise individuals, smaller groups and generally active players). These could randomly spawn in areas of the map that don't get a lot of foot traffic cos honestly there's not a lot of incentive to walk to a lot of places in wastelands or Arkan grasslands etc (ie it makes better use of the existing world map!). Should have no notifications so that active players/adventurers can benefit (not just tavern sitters who wait for notifications). Or If need to give more incentive to contest area capture then you could even tie worldspawning OAD notifications to only go to the guild who controls the zone (ie more incentive to control area). Shrug

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Re: Few concerns

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:12 pm

Terron wrote:did the mr not vary by level before update? cuz the gnome with 22 wis was untouchable by magic basically from level 16+
i pretty much did 16-25 solely on pucas cuz thieves skip them alot and i cant play at reset so most of the game is robbed before i even have a chance. this is also why robbing exp should be very high. so im kinda disappointed by robbing exp dropping. trails gave 120k last night and 70k today. however, that aside, i can see why pucas are blowing me away now.


MR did vary but it wasn't a large amount. A level 16 vs a level 24, you are most likely going to get hit alot yeah, just like you would if you physically aggress something that higher than you too. I think thats kind of fair though, since you would be lower level by a good amount.

120k per rob was a bit much, people could level thieves really quick (Pretty sure many people did this in two or three days with moderate amounts of time, which is far faster than any other class as robbing is an added XP to killing if they decide to do so.). It's honestly still good at 70k-80k though now. It is literally a killshot XP per robbing blind. Thieves don't have bad damage, and you should level them through killing monsters too. I get it's a thief and it steals etc, but you should at least do some work rather then logging in, robbing everything, and logging back off. And as I said above, a lot of people were taking advantage of the rob XP and leveling super fast.


Terron wrote:one way to randomize the oads w/o a system wide oad revamp would be just to randomize the oads within the current set times.
one day mines is at 4 pm seta at 7 and thanny at 9 the next day mines is 1 am thanny at 4pm seta at 9pm. can keep everything the exact same timeframe just the oads spawn at a different time.


It's an interesting idea, wondering the take of what people would think on something like that. It's not possible yet but prob involves some sort of time chart where X OADs can spawn at Y times.


Should have no notifications so that active players/adventurers can benefit (not just tavern sitters who wait for notifications). Or If need to give more incentive to contest area capture the you could even tie worldspawning OAD notifications to guild who controls the zone only (ie more incentive to control area). Shrug


No notifications doesn't really work atm. That would mean you have to actively be running around checking your crystals constantly. This would probably only work if you had a very large playerbase. It's similar to how we used to force people to check ringleader constantly. It ended up that players got sick of doing the OAD because it's too much effort and forcing someone to be around constantly is too much.

And yeah, working on the latter too.

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Re: Few concerns

Postby anthriel » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:21 pm

NiteHawk wrote:
anthriel wrote:
Should have no notifications so that active players/adventurers can benefit (not just tavern sitters who wait for notifications). Or If need to give more incentive to contest area capture the you could even tie worldspawning OAD notifications to guild who controls the zone only (ie more incentive to control area). Shrug


No notifications doesn't really work atm. That would mean you have to actively be running around checking your crystals constantly. This would probably only work if you had a very large playerbase. It's similar to how we used to force people to check ringleader constantly. It ended up that players got sick of doing the OAD because it's too much effort and forcing someone to be around constantly is too much.

And yeah, working on the latter too.


Oh I meant no notifications for a worldspawning OAD boss, not control crystals. It's just nice if you were adventuring in Karnath mines and stumbled upon a worldspawn OAD boss to be able to try kill it yourself or call your friends to capitalise on it rather than have the entire server descend on your location due to a notification that an OAD worldspawn has appeared in Karnath mines. Otherwise everyone would still just sit in tavern until notification went out and not bother being active in the world (ie the worldspawn OAD boss loses some of the purpose it was meant to help accomplish)

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Re: Few concerns

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:57 pm

anthriel wrote:
NiteHawk wrote:
anthriel wrote:
Should have no notifications so that active players/adventurers can benefit (not just tavern sitters who wait for notifications). Or If need to give more incentive to contest area capture the you could even tie worldspawning OAD notifications to guild who controls the zone only (ie more incentive to control area). Shrug


No notifications doesn't really work atm. That would mean you have to actively be running around checking your crystals constantly. This would probably only work if you had a very large playerbase. It's similar to how we used to force people to check ringleader constantly. It ended up that players got sick of doing the OAD because it's too much effort and forcing someone to be around constantly is too much.

And yeah, working on the latter too.


Oh I meant no notifications for a worldspawning OAD boss, not control crystals. It's just nice if you were adventuring in Karnath mines and stumbled upon a worldspawn OAD boss to be able to try kill it yourself or call your friends to capitalise on it rather than have the entire server descend on your location due to a notification that an OAD worldspawn has appeared in Karnath mines. Otherwise everyone would still just sit in tavern until notification went out and not bother being active in the world (ie the worldspawn OAD boss loses some of the purpose it was meant to help accomplish)


Oh do you mean like the dragons? It would be an interesting thing to add something of the sorts, like random OAD monsters that are placed in game at certain locations but aren't broadcasted, so it's only known if you announce it.. I think for those ones might be good to have them not world walkers, but simply a tough monster that might drop some good stuff if you do manage to stumble across one. Though some world walkers could be like that too. I'd like to add more than just the dragons. I.E. A wandering titan of sorts in the desert area.

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Re: Few concerns

Postby anthriel » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:15 pm

NiteHawk wrote:
anthriel wrote:
NiteHawk wrote:
No notifications doesn't really work atm. That would mean you have to actively be running around checking your crystals constantly. This would probably only work if you had a very large playerbase. It's similar to how we used to force people to check ringleader constantly. It ended up that players got sick of doing the OAD because it's too much effort and forcing someone to be around constantly is too much.

And yeah, working on the latter too.


Oh I meant no notifications for a worldspawning OAD boss, not control crystals. It's just nice if you were adventuring in Karnath mines and stumbled upon a worldspawn OAD boss to be able to try kill it yourself or call your friends to capitalise on it rather than have the entire server descend on your location due to a notification that an OAD worldspawn has appeared in Karnath mines. Otherwise everyone would still just sit in tavern until notification went out and not bother being active in the world (ie the worldspawn OAD boss loses some of the purpose it was meant to help accomplish)


Oh do you mean like the dragons? It would be an interesting thing to add something of the sorts, like random OAD monsters that are placed in game at certain locations but aren't broadcasted, so it's only known if you announce it.. I think for those ones might be good to have them not world walkers, but simply a tough monster that might drop some good stuff if you do manage to stumble across one. Though some world walkers could be like that too. I'd like to add more than just the dragons. I.E. A wandering titan of sorts in the desert area.


Notifications on the dragons and other world walkers of their level is fine and helps promote pvp. I meant no notifications if you were to add the worldspawning OAD bosses which are like lower level dragons (that's what I was talking about in my most recent few posts - an additional OAD system that works like the dragons where random OAD bosses spawn in the world). Then active players can access/benefit without having to find parties, get keys etc (all the stuff that needs lots of ppl online or big guilds). It basically incentivises player activity (as opposed to idling), makes better use of unused map areas, and empowers ppl with smaller numbers or bad timezones. IMHO this would solve even more issues than scrambling the set OAD times. And it's hopefully not a big leap in development seeing as the mechanics for the dragons already exist (just need to increase number of diff spawn, downgrade HP and add a suite of new OAD drops and suddenly you could have 40 OADs a day if you wanted!).

Ps - It's actually not going to break PVPcontests at keys/oad anyway cos atm the team with less numbers usually cbb contesting keys/OADs anyway imho (due to aforementioned issue of numbers playing such a big part in success/failure)... So this might actually increase pvp because of the 'unknown' factor (ie "maybe we can get the kill before they realise even though we are outnumbered")

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Re: Few concerns

Postby Terron » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:38 pm

i mean yeah thieves train fast but thats as much because of 275m total exp as it is robbing. robbing is a rarity. i leveled my first brig and never killed a monster past seamoor quests(other than a couple ks on mort wraith in group). it took a couple months. i tried to rob everything everyday and it was already robbed.

im not sure why eld leveled a brig in 3 days was like a new "omg wtf" concept. 2 weeks prior i leveled krarg to 25 in 3.5 days. that wasnt a thief, it was a ranger. its not hard. (i also wasted alot of time because i completed every quest)

robbing is harder than logging on a ninja/slayer stabbing huge monsters til critical, logging on a lowbie and 1 stamming them for 100k exp. yet we do this. leveling is easy if done correctly.

the only thing i didnt think was fair about thieves wasn't even fixed. the ability to rob a monster in group and get a ks bonus a round later is a tad bit op. robbing just shouldn't give exp in party, unless its divided among members
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Re: Few concerns

Postby daedroth » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:45 am

Spawning:
How about "Elites". Normal creature spawns that have a chance of being an "Elite". They then come with some minions. Have a chance of dropping what the mob would normally drop, but it comes humming (or an increased chance of it being humming or some such) or higher drop chances + more gold.
You could have different grades: Veteran < Elite < Champion < Hero
The higher the grade, the more (or higher grade) minions they spawn with.
Could even just have the drop names based on the grade of the beastie (Veteran Feral Warblade, Champion Feral Warblade) The problem with this is there is not enough variance in the weapon/armour min/max damage/protection (which leads me to the next suggestion :) ).

More Variance to Weapons/Armour:
Even if you just double existing values of both, it would add an in between, which would mean you could increase the range of bonuses to items that drop or can be bought.

Prefix/Suffix:
Items with prefixes/suffixes. People love to gamble! Think Diablo 2, those lucky drops (or gambled items from the shop). Again I think there would need to be more variance to armour/weapons protection/AD. Monsters could have this too "Agile Tainted Wolf", "Strong Tainted Wolf", "Tough Tainted Wolf", "Starving Tainted Wolf").

Materials:
I was also sort of thinking of materials for shop boughts/drops. This would basically just add a material to items.
Iron < Bronze < Steel < Mithril < Adamantine.
Instead of having 20 different daggers you have one dagger just different materials to suit the location (Seamore = Iron Dagger, Canopia/Bityrn = Bronze Dagger etc). Although no harm in having: dagger < stilletto etc.

Now imagine how much work something like that would be to implement :)
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Re: Few concerns

Postby NiteHawk » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:05 am

Terron wrote:the only thing i didnt think was fair about thieves wasn't even fixed. the ability to rob a monster in group and get a ks bonus a round later is a tad bit op. robbing just shouldn't give exp in party, unless its divided among members


XP in groups though isn't split to level 25ers at the moment unless they actually get the KS. So I assume you can have a friend who either breaks it down at level 25 or just level with someone else and get fairly high XP. 70k to 80k per rob regardless I feel is plenty compared to the KS which is typically the same amount of XP too.

I get about the whole robbing monster in a group, but right now it's not possible to adjust because it fires on a script side, makes it harder to do certain things like give in group XP right now. There's only a flag when it is dead or not dead, and it uses either the kill shot XP or the PPD XP. All I've done is times the PPD by 6 to get the robbing amount and would need some alterations to split to a group that are not do-able just by scripting and has to be hard code changed. It was never my intension of only having to rob to level to 25 though, and it shouldn't really be like that.


daedroth wrote:Prefix/Suffix:
Items with prefixes/suffixes. People love to gamble! Think Diablo 2, those lucky drops (or gambled items from the shop). Again I think there would need to be more variance to armour/weapons protection/AD. Monsters could have this too "Agile Tainted Wolf", "Strong Tainted Wolf", "Tough Tainted Wolf", "Starving Tainted Wolf").


Those were pretty cool to keep an OAD continuing. Not sure how people would feel about it though. Would be similar to how humming works I think.

daedroth wrote:Spawning:
How about "Elites". Normal creature spawns that have a chance of being an "Elite". They then come with some minions. Have a chance of dropping what the mob would normally drop, but it comes humming (or an increased chance of it being humming or some such) or higher drop chances + more gold.
You could have different grades: Veteran < Elite < Champion < Hero
The higher the grade, the more (or higher grade) minions they spawn with.
Could even just have the drop names based on the grade of the beastie (Veteran Feral Warblade, Champion Feral Warblade) The problem with this is there is not enough variance in the weapon/armour min/max damage/protection (which leads me to the next suggestion ).


'Elite mobs' also is fairly neat. Could be X percentage chance of spawning, on any mobs. Would be fairly low chance on bosses but never know, and could even boost drop rates and other things. (with a mix of having higher chances to drop humming or other effects if we ever get around to adding them)

..

Doubling armors doesn't really solve much, I get that for more variance but I think the values are plenty enough as it is, we haven't even touched on items with unique effects to a mass amount, which I've wanted to dabble in having small effects on some items once we get all the regular blues and purples out.


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