Why?

Terron
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Re: Why?

Postby Terron » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:58 pm

rng isnt 100% of the time. rolling 2 six siders or 1million siders in embers case is just one roll. you have a test server i imagine. use it with equips absorbs mitigation etc all at once. Rng wouldnt allow 1 millionth percentile anomalies very often let alone me seeing them 10+ times in 2 weeks and have it happen half of your ingame experiences.

character whoregasm elemental 10 19 20 21 21 14
level 1-8 sorc 2 unnaffects 5 fizzles. oops i was supposed to be a necro..
delete.
create.
character whoregasm elemental 10 19 20 21 21 14
level 1-8 necro 13 unaffects 47 fizzles.
Subject: Why?

i beg to differ on 1v1, its hard to say that when 60% of the equipped characters ingame have 10-12 wisdom. very rare to see more than 2 necros in an event. and they usually die to chanters unless they have div. i have alot of kills in koth as a dm, before update i killed every chanter except 2 times, after update no chanters die to me. and its not like im under equipped. is what it is i guess, ill be in the chanter/ high mr melee game soon so it wont matter. rip necro.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:20 pm

Terron wrote:rng isnt 100% of the time. rolling 2 six siders or 1million siders in embers case is just one roll. you have a test server i imagine. use it with equips absorbs mitigation etc all at once. Rng wouldnt allow 1 millionth percentile anomalies very often let alone me seeing them 10+ times in 2 weeks and have it happen half of your ingame experiences.

character whoregasm elemental 10 19 20 21 21 14
level 1-8 sorc 2 unnaffects 5 fizzles. oops i was supposed to be a necro..
delete.
create.
character whoregasm elemental 10 19 20 21 21 14
level 1-8 necro 13 unaffects 47 fizzles.
Subject: Why?

i beg to differ on 1v1, its hard to say that when 60% of the equipped characters ingame have 10-12 wisdom. very rare to see more than 2 necros in an event. and they usually die to chanters unless they have div. i have alot of kills in koth as a dm, before update i killed every chanter except 2 times, after update no chanters die to me. and its not like im under equipped. is what it is i guess, ill be in the chanter/ high mr melee game soon so it wont matter. rip necro.


Ah now this is a different story! You are correct about the spells though when you're leveling. Necromancer beam vs Sorceror beam is the same BUT necromancers beam is one level lower. It doesn't mean the max value is lower, but it takes one more level to hit max. This also means it's fizzle and everything else is one level higher to hit max! The max fizzle, which is 2% will still be achieved, but it would take a necromancer one level longer. Also for damage. In the end it's the same. At lower levels though, you will most likely feel it as I'm sure at level 1-4 the fizzle starts around 25-30% and decreases a good chunk each level. It's probably capped with good INT around level 8-12 depending on the class and int. 47 fizzles though is higher than normal even, its at best 5-10% more fizzle rate on start. The unaffects will be the same though. It's literally the 'SAME' script if you are using beam. It loads the same script, fires the same way, the only difference is

Code: Select all

if entityBaseClass == "Necromancer" then levelAdd = 1 end
which goes towards fizzle and damage, but nothing more. unaffects are based on the defender only really.


Fizzle does change depending on spell, and normally for the 1-8 level spells like cure/etc you will see a priest work it's magic more than a druid or paladin would. You might not hit the cap with low INT then it might be a differ story. But most have been balanced for what the average INT is. Blast and Leech might scale slightly differ BUT they both have the same cap, which is 3%.

I'll gladly take a couple level 25 characters and output their MR rates via copying them completely and running a test to output what % of MR the defender has vs whatever necro/sorc/etc has.

Before the update you Necro vs Sorc must of been like 80% MR rate battles though. It could be due to lower MR, not higher, and the offset of having lower MR and lower damage isn't enough to offset the sorcerers higher MR. but again, that's not what we're talking about yet. Unless your saying div effects the MR too again here, thus I'll gladly test some test characters of your liking and output what MR rates they are getting.

It is 100% impossible that divinity effects MR. There is NO REFERENCE TO IT. This doesn't mean that something else could be at play, spell bonus, class bonus, race bonus, level, and wisdom are the only effectors really.


rolling 2 six siders or 1million siders in embers case is just one roll.


What? I'm talking about rolling 2 six siders vs rolling 1million six siders. Only rolling twice will NOT give you the proper average. It's like tossing a coin only twice. The variance should be 50% but if you only do it twice, some people will get 100%, some people will get 0%. If you toss it 1million times, the HIGH chance is that the average will probably be around 45% to 55%, most closer to 50%.


Anyways Hani's post was about MR not effecting which is 100% opposite of what your stating, but for divinity cases, he'd be right on that and it's open for discussion if people want to see that. Though it should be a separate post in core.

Terron
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Re: Why?

Postby Terron » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:44 pm

his topic is about why they suck. especially concerning debuffs. characters die in 7-9 hits. wither is sacrificing a hit for extra damage on the next few but takes 10 hits to balance out. debuffs should just hit easier like pierce through 2-3 wisdom or they barely get used. imo wither is better served because the hits u do after get an extra 10 or so hp gain.

the necro vs chanter thing is easily explained. chanters kept 10% free magic dodge necros lost their 8%

id gladly log on and show you leech vs whatever div you want. if it is all just rng then your rollers spread is far too high. shouldnt see 74% mr characters get scorched 40x straight or 42% mr characters resist 80%. id also like to test it vs taunt. and taunt in general. if this stuff happened once i wouldn't bother mentioning. but since its been static i did. i dont think div is wrong i think all mitigation is doing it.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:56 pm

chanters kept 10% free magic dodge necros lost their 8%


No, chanters don't have it either. For bonuses only paladins 4% and monks 8%. Rest don't apply. If it's stated anywhere it needs to be fixed, but they also lost their MR bonus. (also verified in the actual class file with 'SpellResistBonus=0') Wiki needs some heavy editing though 8(

Debuffs having a easier time to hit is an option, but I feel like things like SAP shouldn't really need it. Wither yeah prob a good idea, etc.

I'm not sure what else to say about the div stuff though, I'd prefer getting a couple chars and then just making it leech 1 million times to get the proper % though on certain chars that you claim.

Edit: Pushed it away form the wiki until it can get updated and using the actual race/class file in game, updated the posts to do with stats in Races/Classes now too.

Terron
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Re: Why?

Postby Terron » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:51 pm

i dont look at wiki really, im pretty sure it is stated on the character creator mage 10%. ill double check

Sorcerer
Important Stats
Intelligence - Power and duration of your spells
Wisdom - Amount of MP you have and your resistance to hostile spells
Agility - How often you dodge
Endurance - How much HP you have
Charisma - Minor HP and MP gains

Ease of Play: Medium
Survivability: Medium
DPS: Medium-High
PVP Value: High
PVE Value: High
Armor: Cloth, Light Helmet
Weapons: Staves, Wands
Attack Increments: 4, 14, 25
Needed EXP to 25: 350 million
20% MP increase
10% MR increase

Skills
Beam - mid level damaging spell
Blast - high level damaging spell
Fade - target becomes invisible, but can still be attacked
Golem - summons a golem of your divinities element to help you
Hover - target avoids traps and won't be followed by monsters
Imp - summons a imp pet to help you.
Power - increases the target's strength
Scribe - enscribes a blank scroll with a level dependant enchantment
Stoneskin - increases the target's armor
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Hanibal
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Re: Why?

Postby Hanibal » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:20 pm

Terron wrote:i beg to differ on 1v1, its hard to say that when 60% of the equipped characters ingame have 10-12 wisdom. very rare to see more than 2 necros in an event. and they usually die to chanters unless they have div. i have alot of kills in koth as a dm, before update i killed every chanter except 2 times, after update no chanters die to me. and its not like im under equipped. is what it is i guess, ill be in the chanter/ high mr melee game soon so it wont matter. rip necro.


I agree, I havent won a koth on my DM since the update and I never use or used wither when I did win it 4 times.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:20 am

Hanibal wrote:
Terron wrote:i beg to differ on 1v1, its hard to say that when 60% of the equipped characters ingame have 10-12 wisdom. very rare to see more than 2 necros in an event. and they usually die to chanters unless they have div. i have alot of kills in koth as a dm, before update i killed every chanter except 2 times, after update no chanters die to me. and its not like im under equipped. is what it is i guess, ill be in the chanter/ high mr melee game soon so it wont matter. rip necro.


I agree, I havent won a koth on my DM since the update and I never use or used wither when I did win it 4 times.


You do know that wither was reducing MR by 380% right? AKA it would be like setting someones AGI to 0 and hitting them. I guess that it could be possibly better, but obviously DM's were OP with a spell that shattered everything. I'm sure we can find a happy medium though there.

Ah yeah Terron thanks for that spot. I will adjust it ASAP. They did lose their bonus thought too, just to state.

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daedroth
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Re: Why?

Postby daedroth » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:42 am

Blah blah blah.

Either way, no harm in testing the MR and taunt thing to set everyone's minds at ease (with actual alts and no simulations).
But who will volunteer and who will attest?
:popcorn:
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:59 am

daedroth wrote:Blah blah blah.

Either way, no harm in testing the MR and taunt thing to set everyone's minds at ease (with actual alts and no simulations).
But who will volunteer and who will attest?
:popcorn:



I don't understand why we can't use actual coding from the server and do X amount of tests. You guys can't get enough data unless you are going to test 10k-100k hits minimum to get a decent average. It's not even a simulation in the sense of 'paper simulation'. It's literally going to be using the script/etc, and just outputting the MR values/Damage rather than hitting the target directly and losing HP, thus you spam attack to get the hits.

I can literally do everything like it was a real fight, not a paper simulation, but on a global scale, with actual characters, and output all the data.

If you guys want to blahblahblah and ignore it feel free. You guys can do what you want in the end.. If you guys want to sit and test with 10k-100k hits or so, that is alright as well, just more work on your part. I'm again offering solutions to test this, as I said before it could be something else causing issues if that's the case with alts as I am 100% certain it is not divinity. I'm not trying to hide stuff, and if things are faulty, I'd gladly fix it. Through my tests, they were fine, but maybe alt combination of attacker vs defender might shed more stuff, but I didn't get any real data yet.

I've also said we can take a look at certain things, and I will be taking a look at things like wither, damages, etc, so I'm going to take a step back from the post now as we are going in circles unless test data is needed, otherwise feel free to setup something on your own and output the data.

Anyways Hanibal, you have some valid points but you need to see if people will support them. I would again suggest making a post about divinity and having MR work with AGI/MR (seriously dude, do this in CORE as a separate post. I think it warrants a individual post. Try to bring up some suggestions on how much AGI/MR should change too.). For necromancers, I will take a look at a certain few spells like wither. I think making it pierce easier is not a bad idea, as well as looking at the SR reduction to see how we can do it, need to do some tests though first before that.

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daedroth
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Re: Why?

Postby daedroth » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:56 am

NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE EXPLAINED BY SCIENCE!
There are mysteries out there... :ugeek:

Actually one of the questions I was going to ask was if the simulation used every variable (as in normal scripts/abilities/classes/div etc, so it was just like real combat anyway) rather than just a number cruncher without all the scripts.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
I love sheep.


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