Why?

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Hanibal
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Why?

Postby Hanibal » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:33 pm

Why do DeathMages suck hard now and why does Wither uneffect so much?

Is the spell broken or was that class seen as being to strong so were fixed?

I'm just curious because its become you cant play almost any class anymore expecting them to have certain strengths/weakness's versus other classes.

Snyper
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Re: Why?

Postby Snyper » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:06 pm

The recent change to wither, if i remember right, was because wither was causing leech to hit 100% of the time and reducing the target MR by 450% or so? This event should provide info for NiteHawk to hopefully make a positive change to the class. Are you casting on high MR targets or average to low MR? Give situations and examples and help provide some info to make the class better :)

Terron
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Re: Why?

Postby Terron » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:07 am

i play a necro everyday. they suck. 16 wisdom is nearly impossible to hit steady enough for the pathetic damage to succeed. my dm is voltus and basically if i aint hitting 10-12 wisdom or riva characters i might aswell attack with my stick.

the class has 4 debuffs and most of the time ur dead before u even get em to stick, or your so wounded you cant afford not to leech. just play a chanter lol. my dm relies on high agi to sit there awhile, but the character will be outright worthless when all the former drake/saur/horc users switch to goblins dwarves and dark elves. this will happen, shredding 50 hps and 10 damage for huge buffs to mr.

its not about winning for me, the part that is most irritating is MR on this game. the formulas are sound in theory except i dont hit MR characters 3-5x out of 10 like the math shows. and my drake ninja sure isnt resisting 32/100.

i really think div is bugged atm. i hit 80% on any riva character regardless of wisdom. on the flipside of that earth divs are impossible to hit. ive missed an earth ele druid in cat form prolly 80+ leeches and landed 9 in the past 10 days. this doesnt happen neutral.

one thing ive noticed.
my damage is 111-136 nuetral
my damage is 122-159 with div
against div my damage is 99 - 120. however, i have never actually seen any successful hits on players with damage 99-110.
is MR's damage mitigation causing spell fails?
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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daedroth
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Re: Why?

Postby daedroth » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:09 am

Terron wrote:i play a necro everyday. they suck. 16 wisdom is nearly impossible to hit steady enough for the pathetic damage to succeed. my dm is voltus and basically if i aint hitting 10-12 wisdom or riva characters i might aswell attack with my stick.

the class has 4 debuffs and most of the time ur dead before u even get em to stick, or your so wounded you cant afford not to leech. just play a chanter lol. my dm relies on high agi to sit there awhile, but the character will be outright worthless when all the former drake/saur/horc users switch to goblins dwarves and dark elves. this will happen, shredding 50 hps and 10 damage for huge buffs to mr.

its not about winning for me, the part that is most irritating is MR on this game. the formulas are sound in theory except i dont hit MR characters 3-5x out of 10 like the math shows. and my drake ninja sure isnt resisting 32/100.

i really think div is bugged atm. i hit 80% on any riva character regardless of wisdom. on the flipside of that earth divs are impossible to hit. ive missed an earth ele druid in cat form prolly 80+ leeches and landed 9 in the past 10 days. this doesnt happen neutral.

one thing ive noticed.
my damage is 111-136 nuetral
my damage is 122-159 with div
against div my damage is 99 - 120. however, i have never actually seen any successful hits on players with damage 99-110.
is MR's damage mitigation causing spell fails?


In levelling 2 new necros (same intelligence and only to 9th with both).
One was neutral div (human), the other... night I think.
Night div necro is helf, he fizzled/unaffected more than human neitral (and it seemed to be against div when it happened).happened).
Basically what I saw seems to corroberates this, but...
Maybe coincidence (esp, since its based on a small section of data :) )...
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Hanibal
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Re: Why?

Postby Hanibal » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:19 am

Snyper wrote:The recent change to wither, if i remember right, was because wither was causing leech to hit 100% of the time and reducing the target MR by 450% or so? This event should provide info for NiteHawk to hopefully make a positive change to the class. Are you casting on high MR targets or average to low MR? Give situations and examples and help provide some info to make the class better :)


I just thought Wither was suppose to help reduce MR but if its going to uneffect regardless of the char or npcs you are casting it on it seem's like a very useless spell, I agree you shouldnt hit 100% of the time or reduce the MR by that amount but in theory it should effect alot more then it uneffects and that seem's to be almost all the time.

Leech isnt powerful enough to be relied on alone, they kinda need every spell in their arsenal to be a viable pvp/pve character.

And as someone else mentioned, divs seem to be really bugged. I always thought if you had div on someone or something they would hit you for less damage then you hit it/them or at least less often, I mean whats the sense of having div if this isnt the case?

When I create a character its to give me an upper hand be it vs an npc or fighting pve, so if I know a lot of people are using Ice div I'm goign to train some Valkies or if certain bosses are night div I'm going to bring fire crits. From what I have noticed div doesnt seem to matter in many cases so all that time feels wasted.

Maybe this is why the numbers have dropped so much lately?

I don't know, most posts i throw up on here people look at as complaints, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how this game is suppose to work because half the time it doesnt make sense. If we are trying to balance the game making one race/class weaker isnt balancing.

Every race/class should have a bane, ice is fire's, storm is ice's etc, just like chanters should eat saurians unless its a ninja then that should be a good fight....

End of rant.

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daedroth
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Re: Why?

Postby daedroth » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:37 am

Hopefully when necro's get looked at they will be adjusted appropriatley :)
Side note, I don't bother with wither for levelling, 20mp cost for 10% more damage... meh, not worth it.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:55 am

I'm fine disputing things, but I'm going to be upfront about everything. It isn't an attack, it's simply how the game is right now.

No spell has a 'harder pierce rate' bar what wisdom gives them. They are all the same. 12 wisdom is 68% hit rate on average without class/race bonuses. For NPCs its an extra 3 wisdom, so another 12% hit rate more. Right now wither gives an extra 3% hit rate around, about 8-15 damage, and lowers armor. It's meant more for PVP though and harder monsters. The numbers can be adjusted if they aren't enough obviously. I just need more data. Wither could also have a higher penetration though rather then normal. I.E. only takes into affect half MR rather then full as current. That's possible too for sure. If its 20MP right now that can be reduced too etc.

If you want to bring up divinity changes feel free. Divinities aren't broken though. Divinities give 10-15% damage on average depending on your shards equipped etc. This can obviously be adjusted if people feel it's too low. Divinities have NEVER given AGI bonuses or MR bonuses in this game, again something you can discuss in 'Core' as a separate topic, and probably is a good idea to get feedback about it. The divinities have been more damage only right now though, that's really it. Again this warrants a separate discussion and feel free to open one and poll it, I recommend doing it and getting feedback. I don't mind changing divinities to take into effect more if people feel it that way.

Also yes, thats exactly why I made the event Snyper, because I want some feedback on the spells. I can agree on some things like wither should maybe be more affecting in terms of how much lower MR does, etc.

---

Night div necro is helf, he fizzled/unaffected more than human neitral (and it seemed to be against div when it happened).happened).


Unaffects are all the same and is based on wisdom and level. So this is one of those just in your head or back luck things. RND and all that. Fizzle can slightly change based on race but this isn't a major thing. Unaffect does not based on any race or class.


one thing ive noticed.
my damage is 111-136 nuetral
my damage is 122-159 with div
against div my damage is 99 - 120. however, i have never actually seen any successful hits on players with damage 99-110.
is MR's damage mitigation causing spell fails?


MR doesn't do anything fancy like that. MR is a set 4% per wis, starting at 24% (though if your a zerker you get -8% for example on top of this, but generally its 24% and scales up for most). It starts off lower then AGI, and is a little higher as well at the end. It's literally very similar to AGI now and I know it's valid as I've tested it several times now. If you are fighting npcs, remove another -12% resists, similar to how AGI works again there.

However, your 'against div' damage would be higher if they didn't have a proper shard equipped on their armor or shield. Their negation starts at 10%, and if they don't have shard(s), it stays there. Wisdom still lowers some damage too. Similar to passive armor. I'm pretty sure it only removes around 5% now with high wisdom though, around. It's not a huge drop.


I'm not exactly sure what you guys want though with MR. I honestly thing it's rather OK now and it's actually less resistant than previous in general. It's very similar to how AGi works now, and for the most case bar higher wisdom, its easier to hit than before, not harder. Before the AGI was probably 30% to 80% (not including class bonuses, which lowered zekers to around 25% and assassins to 27% with 10 MR), now its around 24% to 64% (again not including class bonues, which you remove a static 8% with zerkers and 4% with assassins as the lower, and ninjas get a bonus.) They also didn't get a extra -12 less MR if they were NPCS, that was added recently.

If anything damage is the thing that can be looked at, or making wither more useful, etc.


Again, DIV DOES NOT AFFECT MR. There is literally no code to make MR change based on divinity. It is 0% possible because the coding doesn't exist that even takes in a divinity bonus or divinity itself. I literally have not coded anything that does this but is not active, etc. The MR code is hard coded as well, so it's not like a script can muck it up or be different per script. Ain't no magic code fairies adding it on compile 8)


---

P.S. The numbers didn't drop because of divinities. The numbers dropped cause theres nothing to do. It's kind of silly to say that when the game was working for a good long time when we actually had content being produced constantly. We've had a huge drop in released content in the last few months, and I can't find enough people to take the roles, thus the game is fairly boring right now. I can't do everything on my own and the 3 builders that are actually doing stuff are getting burnt out. The game was doing super well the way it was, but I just think it gets boring fast. I'm not saying what is released isn't great, but we haven't had enough content and the current builders who are actually building are overworked. I made leveling a bit easy, but that was in mind of having level 25-50 but unfort isnt out yet.. Sometimes I wish I released that as well. Most people have a bunch of 25ers now/etc so theres no real grind anymore, and grind is an OK thing to keep players active, it gives a goal.

Terron
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Re: Why?

Postby Terron » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:42 pm

i dont think anything is broken in how it works. but magical spells are doing weird things with and against div. im 100% certain of this. it isnt just a random occurrance that happens once in awhile its been 2 weeks steady. my storm dm doesnt get resisted by riva characters very often, i would say 10-15% tops. and im even hitting constant 3.5/4 on elemental chanters of riva div. when you jump to the flipside of it every earth character of mediocre MR are completely invincible to me.

can you tell me the odds of 100 leeches and not hitting earth ele cat with 42% mr 91 of em?
an earth goblin guardian resisting all but 2 leeches in a 15 minute period at a late night thanatos? late night 3v2
hitting 30-40x in a row on an elemental riva chanter?
the odds of every successful hit on players against div never being 99-110 damage and always 111-120?

whats the odds of a taunted 23 agi ninja missing 71/85 on a 22 agi cav? that happened yesterday morning.

ive game tested for over half my life for huge games and mmo's. there is definitely something off with this.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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NiteHawk
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Re: Why?

Postby NiteHawk » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:25 pm

Terron wrote:i dont think anything is broken in how it works. but magical spells are doing weird things with and against div. im 100% certain of this. it isnt just a random occurrance that happens once in awhile its been 2 weeks steady. my storm dm doesnt get resisted by riva characters very often, i would say 10-15% tops. and im even hitting constant 3.5/4 on elemental chanters of riva div. when you jump to the flipside of it every earth character of mediocre MR are completely invincible to me.

can you tell me the odds of 100 leeches and not hitting earth ele cat with 42% mr 91 of em?
an earth goblin guardian resisting all but 2 leeches in a 15 minute period at a late night thanatos? late night 3v2
hitting 30-40x in a row on an elemental riva chanter?
the odds of every successful hit on players against div never being 99-110 damage and always 111-120?

whats the odds of a taunted 23 agi ninja missing 71/85 on a 22 agi cav? that happened yesterday morning.

ive game tested for over half my life for huge games and mmo's. there is definitely something off with this.
¨

I'm 100% certain there is no issue involving divinities and MR, I literally just have had it output the values and there was no issues. I don't know what else to tell you here. RND is a bitch I guess. The formula doesn't even has a reference to divinity.

Now that you bring in AGI too I kind of question that too. RNG again, maybe need something other then RNG. That one has a even more basic formula which is literally agi and level really.

I mean, you could be the game tester and i'll test any claims, I got the formulas though and can make simulations of 1mil hits. :|

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Lateralus
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Re: Why?

Postby Lateralus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:45 pm

As someone who runs koth and koth jr quite a bit I can assure you dms are the top 1v1 class in the game. They are the best hands down and we are starting the see the koth meta reflect that. More and more people are playing them and they win quite a bit as well as streak. Both in jr and reg. Now group pvp is a bit diff but I’m not sure how they can be “bad” when they are the top in atleast 1 form of pvp.


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