Lets get this straight

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Folder
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby Folder » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:39 pm

Yeah, sorry but I don't see any super-defensive staff members here, nor any that have done the wrong thing. Whatever though, I'm pretty much outta here because the constant whining and accusations will never end. Considering I'm in THE FACTION and I know how things have always been done here it's just incredibly depressing that people won't ever stop throwing accusations. Guess they win.

Even after NH and Lat have commented it's still YEAH BUT. Give it up people, corruption ain't there and the ONLY TIME IT WAS THE GUY WAS KICKED FROM STAFF STRAIGHT AWAY. Make public logs for everything staff does. Dump staff discord chats. NH can, again, explain how little power staff actually has. It won't matter people will always say YEAH BUT.

F it.
<Silhouette>

anthriel
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby anthriel » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:57 am

Folder wrote:Yeah, sorry but I don't see any super-defensive staff members here, nor any that have done the wrong thing. Whatever though, I'm pretty much outta here because the constant whining and accusations will never end. Considering I'm in THE FACTION and I know how things have always been done here it's just incredibly depressing that people won't ever stop throwing accusations. Guess they win.

Even after NH and Lat have commented it's still YEAH BUT. Give it up people, corruption ain't there and the ONLY TIME IT WAS THE GUY WAS KICKED FROM STAFF STRAIGHT AWAY. Make public logs for everything staff does. Dump staff discord chats. NH can, again, explain how little power staff actually has. It won't matter people will always say YEAH BUT.

F it.


Mate in case you didn't read my former post carefully I was not accusing you or anyone of corruption. I was trying to illustrate how ppl may conceive of such ideas and suggesting that everyone accept some degree of fault for the current impasse. In short I was trying (perhaps unsuccessfully/poorly) to promote EMPATHY between the different factions with their entrenched perspectives. Your response to it however did seem hasty and super-defensive imo. Just as you claim the other side is quick to interpret everything through the lens of staff corruption, perhaps you and your side are also quick to also interpret everything as an accusation of staff corruption. Everyone needs to grow in empathy is my point. We often feel we are hard done by. But I'm sure the other guy genuinely does too. The only way it works is if we try to do what we can to see things from their perspective and understand rather that hate them for it. Otherwise only one faction will eventually survive and that is sad for the game. Peace.

_X_
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby _X_ » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:19 pm

"factions" lol.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:35 pm

anthriel wrote:Basically it unavoidable to notice that the majority of staffers come from 1 faction. And that faction also happens to be the largest and most successful faction (for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with cheating etc). But when u r someone who is not in that faction and you discover that some borderline TOS-breaking stuff has been occurring for weeks within that faction to their benefit, and not one of their staff members decided to report it or make the community aware that it's happening etc etc... It does look a lot like cheating (esp from the outside of that faction!). What follows is a public confrontation on discord, super-defensiveness from the faction with staffers basically claiming that anyone who dares question their behaviour is abusing them and more toxic factionalism continues until you step in to stop the bot. But where could this have been prevented/stopped? Well I think it could have been best stopped earlier and less damagingly if the faction with the staffers has been more transparent to report this borderline TOS breaking activity long beforehand and not just quietly enjoy its benefits for weeks. The fact that no repercussions other than turning off the bot occurred also makes ppl in the other faction(s) likely feel that there's a group of 'untouchable' players (many of whom are associated with staff because they are part of that faction) who can push TOS boundaries and not get anything more than a mild chiding for it. Apparently this kind of thing has had further precedents also, such as abusing some bug with the river shark etc back around time I first started playing etc.


Unfortunately the problem stems too because they has the highest player retention rate at the moment too. Other staffers end up vanishing or quitting, one unfortunately abused his powers while he was busy attacking the other party members claiming they were corrupt, it was pretty dumb.

If you think banning Ry would of done anything, you'd be wrong. He can literally shut the game down through DDosing. I like Ry, he has been super helpful with the game, but I know if I started being a prick about it EO would probably suffer. Some people can pretty much blow up EO in a heartbeat with it. You can claim that's unjust but it's happened a few times in the past with others too. We had one who attacked the server for a week straight because Rodeo had become a staffer. The only way to resolve that was to talk to him and get him to relax, banning him would of resulted in the games' death. Security only goes so far. If you're actually DDOS'ed for quite awhile networks will shut off your connection completely. We don't have the fancy stuff to prevent a large scale attack, it's a lot of money. With RY, I told him to shut it down, and he did. I've given many botters in the game that have actually done it for gold or XP benefits the same grace first time too. I normally try to avoid banning to start unless it keeps going. I've given many people from all sides, without broadcasting what they've done, when they do things such as bot. If a staffer was abusing his position, he would lose it instantly as I've said though.

---

I've actually denied several applications now because I have been trying to prevent a whole group being one side. Not because I don't think they are good, but because I think the community would freak out. It's sad too, because a to of these people could be beneficial to the game, specially scripters who have applied and I turned down. I feel myself like I should hire them for the survival of the game, but people would get more upset, so the end result is we're losing staffers and again, there's not many applicants. Obviously the applicants need to be sane too.


Now weve been in discussion how to reduce factionalism in another thread (which I think would greatly help), but here I think the main thing is to recognise that there are troublemakers on both sides. Yes there are embittered staff abusers that probably need to be censured somehow. But there are also supe-defensive staff faction members who need to stop being super-defensive and just do the right thing more beforehand regarding transparency etc when they should know better to. If this happens then hopefully everyone can be more friendly to one another and enjoy playing the game. That's my 2 cents. Peace.


I do agree about the super-defensive stuff that some staffers have, it bothers me sometimes and I've had to bitch at them about it sometimes. I also agree bugs and other things should be reported ASAP, by anyone, regardless. There haven't been too many serious issues but they should be relayed obviously, or at least ask. I'm not really sure the reason for it. Maybe thinking its not a big problem (the chat bot for example), though it's still a bot and shouldn't be allowed. Either or its not just one side doing it, but yeah, one side does have more players in staff at the moment.

In any case, this isn't about defending one side or the other, I'm just pointing out how it has been.

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Eld
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby Eld » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:14 pm

It's really sad that this has come up again, despite the many times Nitehawk has addressed this and listed all the measures he has in place to stop any corruption from occurring.
It's disappointing that newbies like the OP have to come across these rumours as it just totally kills their enthusiasm for the game and stops our playerbase from growing.

To reiterate, this isn't Realms of Kaos or Nightmist, all Staff realise how damaging corruption can be for a game after seeing what happened there. If there was actually corruption it could kill the game overnight.

To approach this from a different angle, if i wanted to be a corrupt staffer there is pretty much no way i can do this, Nitehawk has all abilities locked down to the bare minimum and all staffer interactions logged. It's tighter than a duck's anus.

Staff are giving up their free time to try and make this game grow. We're all invested in improving the game before we can start advertising to grow the player base.

Staffers are at a disadvantage to normal players due to all the sacrifices they have to make (less playing time, can't take part in their own events, can't run new areas if you've been involved, wardens have to disband from guilds, etc.)
There are no game play advantages to being staff.

Not to mention the harassment you get from a small section of the player base for daring to be Staff. It's not a coincidence that many staffers have become inactive or outright quit after being worn down over time. I think there's been at least 4 in the last couple of months, which is probably a quarter of staff?
We need good staffers to run fun events, create content, run quests, and just grow the game.

I used to spend a solid amount of time on this game, on both the player and staff side.
Now I've logged in maybe 3-4 times in the last 6 weeks, and have chipped in with a handful of ideas on Discord.

We've really gotta find a cure for this toxic community, because it's crushing the potential of this game and losing us so many players and staff.

_X_
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby _X_ » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:47 pm

Eld wrote:wardens have to disband from guilds, etc.


Maybe, all staff should have to disband from guilds? Wouldn't this solve a few issues? Or maybe break up the "Too Big To Fail" guild that dominates the game?

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Eld
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby Eld » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:06 pm

_X_ wrote:
Eld wrote:wardens have to disband from guilds, etc.


Maybe, all staff should have to disband from guilds? Wouldn't this solve a few issues? Or maybe break up the "Too Big To Fail" guild that dominates the game?


I don't think getting staff to disband from guilds would help, i think it'd make things worse.
I think it would be harder to retain/gain staff, and lead to them falling away from the game (as has happened before)

Additionally, if they didn't play the game on normal characters it's harder to see potential ways to improve the game.

I also don't really see what's gained from asking staff to disband other than placating the small amount of people who think corruption is an issue despite all the reassurances.
Even if staff disbanded from guilds they'd still likely accuse them of having secret alts in guilds.

As for breaking up big guilds, I don't wanna go off topic, but that's been covered a lot elsewhere and it isn't the central issue here.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:47 pm

_X_ wrote:
Eld wrote:wardens have to disband from guilds, etc.


Maybe, all staff should have to disband from guilds? Wouldn't this solve a few issues? Or maybe break up the "Too Big To Fail" guild that dominates the game?


We don't have wardens because of this rule unfort. I think its needed for wardens but you can't force builders/etc to build only and not have interaction with your friends. I think it would help, but I also wouldn't have any staff members because no one would apply. We're struggling enough at it is, making it a job more then something fun will kill it for a lot of staffers.

Dan
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby Dan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:05 pm

Imo all those arguments are uneffective cause there is no proof that what you are saying is true.

That's what i am saying, if you want a cure for this "toxic" community, make thing transparent to everyone.

The "everything staff does" log should be public or something like that.

That way staff shouldn't be afraid or the toxic players wouldn't have arguments.

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NiteHawk
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Re: Lets get this straight

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:21 pm

Dan wrote:Imo all those arguments are uneffective cause there is no proof that what you are saying is true.

That's what i am saying, if you want a cure for this "toxic" community, make thing transparent to everyone.

The "everything staff does" log should be public or something like that.

That way staff shouldn't be afraid or the toxic players wouldn't have arguments.



While I can add things to view certain things like when your being checked on using /spy and anything other command that might make players feel better, (which is fine to do), having to upload logs on builders who literally have no access other then warping around to me is useless and a waste of time.

Unfortunately if you don't believe the developer of the game, there's not much else I can do. I agree with some points and will make some adjustments anyways. (I.E. Call SendPrivateMessage(playerOnline, 1, "~mYou are under the watchful eyes of " & Players(index).Name & "...") is now in.)

The toxic players would find other ways to abuse players. The problem is the harassment, it's invalid, it's always been invalid, even with logs, it will continue to be invalid, but it can stress them and they end up quitting.


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