Guilds Redux

anthriel
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby anthriel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:57 pm

I still think an incentive system to encourage new/smaller guild setup/viability is the way to go. In the last month or two there’s been an increase in ppl choosing to be in 1-3 person guilds (Now there is Torm, AAH, thieves guild, Ronin, shady acres etc). It’s getting increasingly obvious ppl want more options. Yet most of these new small guilds struggle to get bigger than 3ppl cos most other player factions want to join a superguild - so even when a group of players leave one superguild cos they don’t like it, they generally join the other one instead of branching out to start their own thing or supporting a smaller guild. This is largely due to game design issues (eg numbers needed to get loot/keys etc - which we’ve already discussed). But if we introduce an incentive system such that it gives ppl alternate ways to get loot in smaller guilds, it actually helps with guild diversity. My original suggestion for this is linked below and honestly I’ve not seen a reasonable refutation as to why it isn’t a good system (other than vague excuses to avoid changing the current power structures which means current superguild leaders may lose some of their workforce). PP is so skewed to timezone advantages etc that the argument of “not handing out PP too easily” is a hypocritical one too imo. Anyway just putting this forward again cos no1 has provided a good refutation or a better suggestion yet.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1512

I know staff r trying the “lets take it slowly” approaching but honestly I think some steps need to start being taken cos not changing stuff (or changing stuff too slowly) is still causing ppl to quit in the meantime. Peace all.

Terron
Posts: 802
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:52 pm

tbh i just want drama free atmosphere. so i choose to sit alone lol.

i also dont have the same viewpoints of what drama is either. idc if people banter on global or say runmore newbs in a page or global thats honestly not drama imo. thats part of gaming, its been part of gaming forever, even mortal kombat had little shadows pop up in the lower right that said "WUSSYYYY!!" when someone getting their ass handed to em.

i dont like the guild drama, and that really doesnt constitute with guild a vs guild b for me. idgaf what the other team says i just ignore it and kill them later. what i dont care for is always internal. internal guild drama ruins the game down to its core and affects everyone. hell it even has an effect on your enemy guilds who start getting bored when noone logs on to pvp.

people dont want to be in a guild with 25 people in it on a game with 53 players. but u can be sure as shit theyll endure it forever aslong as they can hoard keys and slaughter oads for 150pp caliber items in under 5 minutes. yeah casuals need to compete! then give them long repeatable quest chains that result in blue gear(purple if hummed) and let it be. they get endless stuff to do. i mean face it, its a long ass day when oads take 5 minutes. they get completed so fast that everyone sits bored and waits for the next jolt of competition/fun.

as soon as people have to actually play the game to win, you will see more guilds. asking shells to log in and push f1 for 5 minutes 2 or 3 times a day is the real cause of all this crap. i can literally send every friend i have 1 character discord them at 7pm and win, its just crappy design. guilds need to go poof really if the game stays the same, because the core is heavily abused and stagnant with the huge guild design and set times on all the content.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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daedroth
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby daedroth » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:50 am

The main reason I join and leave clans has been because of the people in them. Idgaf about items and clan power.
I have came close to leaving Silh because of clan drama, but so far it has cleared up before it has became a major issue for me.
One thing in clan annoying me right now is the Shit Talk channel, I used to like that channel, but now it's became a one sided Political channel (ironically mainly by people who don't even play anymore). I miss the shit talk channel when it was just shit talk/jokes/memes and bad puns :(
They really should create a Political Channel to seperate that from the shit talk! Or is the fact that politics are being discussed in the shit talk channel an appropriate metaphor (can't think of the proper word) for political talk? :D
But yeh clan drama is the main reason I will leave/join clans.

More solo/small clan incentives would be good.
Quests as Piddy mentioned or crafting.
Crafting could be a step by step process.
Lower level crafting materials to make lower level stuff, or save up those crafting materials and combine them to make crafting materials for higher level stuff (or higher level stuff just needs more materials). So eventually you can grind enought to get materials to make the items you need. No need to try and do a oad where as a solo or small clan you would need to compete against the larger clans or against the more icky oad bosses who require full teams etc.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
I love sheep.

Whitestar
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Whitestar » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:41 pm

I've been very adamantly against supporting a reduction of guild size especially to the 5 member mark. it can be difficult managing to get the same 5 players on at the same time all with time to spend 20-50 minutes to do a oad like Mana Caverns. while you could reduce the requirements to run that oad or others it then just makes it easier for select people to run all. also friendships that have developed over the last nearly 2 decades for some are hard to limit to 5 people especially as some of closest mates may not have the ability to be as active as you need to compete. it's why big guilds work usually not same 10 people if get rolled 3 days in a row at seta (was a complaint before).

Keep in mind i have little knowledge of build/code/script capabilities or functions. some of this is plausible some just not feasible and a lot is just spitballed and incomplete. i can expand ideas as requested.

however i think adding City based alliances could help with some of those issues. can lower guild members allowed to 5 and then through alliance could get others together. my thoughts on that are this.

1. Each City has a gate NPC that allows guild owner to apply to alliance.
2. Each City has a sign saying which guilds are apart of the alliance.
3. Each city alliance only allows 3-6 guilds to be members of alliance.
4. application to alliance cost guild 100k
5. you can not drop alliance/join new more than once monthly.
6. below NPC (down) is alliance hall with tavern, temple, arena, alliance store (really doesn't matter where its at in city)
7. Add alliance chat capabilities.

City Alliance names could be such. (lore department may have better thoughts)
Kraken Isle Privateers
Alderrian 43rd Guard Division
Fort Huldur Soldiers Confederation
Seamoor People's Militia
Drevlar Miners Union
Canopia Nature Society
Wiken 317th expeditionary force
Bityrn Neighborhood watch
Turenyara Free Riders Association
Arkanmaw Patrol Group

doesn't stop people from teaming up with other cities as unofficial (by game) alliances but nothing has been said that does that. (couldn't enforce/stop) implementing phase 2 could help weaken such alliances though.

Phase 2 This new guild/alliance system would make possible for more game driven events. which can help break some cross alliance guild bonds.

each week or month matches city alliance vs city alliance

(the alliance list gets activity check then randomized each week/month so if Drevlar miners union = 0 guilds then removed from that weeks/months opponent list matchup) does mean odd guild doesn't have opponent and any participation would grant reward but could half payout if not opposing anyone. (also wouldn't get pvp objective rewards)

some task could be
Kill most OaD monsters
kill most hourly spawn mini boss monsters
kill most npc monsters
kill opponent cities players
complete daily quest
complete quest
Capture control crystals owned by opponent alliance/guilds (really control crystals would need to be redesigned if dropped to 5 member guilds or made alliance controlled/owned)

The alliance with the most in each category gets the reward. (message board in alliance tavern tracks your progress)
guild with most participation in category gets higher value. if 3 guilds per alliance adopted maybe standard 20% for all guilds then additional 25% for first and 15% for second. (so guild with most participation would get 45% of alliance reward 2nd 35% and 3 20%)
alliance get milestone rewards each category (alliance slays 15 oad bosses each member gets 2 badges kill 20 3 badges type deal)

Thought on reward nothing game changing more cosmetic
Reward is given in City Specific Badges. (tracked like pp/cm not physical asset)
Badges are used to rename level 20 gear into city variant. 100 tokens and expert rare Weapon Materials* for weapon 50 tokens and expert rare Armor materials* for armor ect.
IE Privateers Scimitar (sword), patrol group garb (cloak), miners union cap (light helm), 317th expedition force buckler (shield)
and level 25 gear into city variant.
IE Kraken Isle Privateers Scimitar (sword), Arkanmaw patrol group garb (cloak), Drevlar miners union cap (light helm), Wiken 317th expedition force Buckler (shield)
* Weapon and armor materials are gained through turning in any level 20(expert)/25(master) armor/weapon piece + gold (make cloth/light/medium/heavy armor materials instead of generic armor materials)

could do seasons of 6,8,12 month durations where at end top 5 guilds with highest objective numbers receive something nice. (maybe 5% upgraded version of global ember of their choice with 1 season expiration timer)

Terron
Posts: 802
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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:05 am

sounds great, lets all be 1 guild so we all win

if youve been friends for nearly 2 decades i dont think it matters what guild name either of you have. sounds like you are assuming if u capped guilds to 5 or erased them entirely, that u cant be friends no more cuz of some fake banner on a fake guild of internet people. and that they will likewise instantly treat you with prejudice and never want to team.

you could erase guilds and still group with all your friends and have the benefit of never having to team with people you dont like.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

anthriel
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby anthriel » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:26 am

Yep I think ppl generally want:
1. Chance to play with friends, team up and cooperate (why some system of guilds or individual alliances are good)
2. Chance to make new friends (why whatever system of guilds and oads needs to be friendly to allow cooperation with new ppl at diff occasions - and not just one-sided domination or factionalism which turns toxic and ends up with ppl hating each other bitterly - ie not a fun way to spend free time)
3. A chance to kill/destroy ppl they really dislike (currently very hard to do unless you are in the biggest superguild running around with the largest posse behind your back... which means for ppl to fulfil this desire they need to incite hatred for the entire opposing faction and ppl who would otherwise be innocently happy bystanders get dragged into a cycle of hatred - which leads to toxicity and not good outcomes for the game’s playerbase)... having smaller guilds would mean ppl could just war against a more selected group of ppl they dislike and have a better chance of killing each other rather than needing to drag the rest of the playerbase into it.

Ppl generally don’t want (ie I’ve seen many quit over):
1. Being dominated by larger numbers (no way to stop this presently cos no caps on guild numbers or any incentive mechanisms to break up superguilds... so most just take the easy road of “if you can’t beat em join em”)
2. Being forced to deal with drama of playing with ppl they don’t like (a natural result of the superguild systwm)
3. Making new friends and then watching their friends get into drama/fights with each other (quite frequent in the current superguild system)
4. Watching bad staff interactions with current guild system that get out of control... eg perceptions of unjust banning (or not banning), insider privilege (knowledge/influence etc), staff being removed (or not) for misconduct relating to guilds etc

Getting the game down into smaller groups (either individual alliances system or guilds of 10-20accts max) is probably the way to go. Means no 1 guild can be self-sufficient and dominate everything so players then need to be civil/diplomatic with other guilds/players to get things done. They will still compete sometimes, but other times they may form temporary alliances etc and more guilds can place themselves in the grey area between the warring haters. This equates to less toxicity, less bastardisation, less perceptions of domination etc etc and allows for more grey areas that ppl can explore (or not just the boring current formula of faction A vs faction B and biggest numbers wins).

The sooner we move to getting this done the better. The Game is dying as we speak. Every day the current system remains, more ROK goodwill is burned. Halloween season was the most recent round of drama and now look at the playerbase lvl of engagement (despite new content being released etc since)!!
Last edited by anthriel on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zarkral
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:23 am

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Zarkral » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:33 pm

I don't think this is easily solved by just cutting the guild size limit. All the incentives that made those guilds would still be around. Pretty much all current group content is an incentive to shape the player base into two big blocks. I think the core issue is that If you got 60% of the active players on your side you get 99% of the kills, loots, rewards or whatever you are aiming at, while the other 40% gets stomped. Even though some effort has been put into solo content at max level (dailies, long solo quests for endgame gear) to counter balanced that, we are probably not quite there yet.

Ideally if you had 60% of the players, you should get about 60% of the reward. So lets just remove all those incentives? Be gone everything that is mainly decided by numbers, that means all OAD key fight, dragons etc. There wouldn't be much game left.

I suppose you could gain OAD keys from daily/weekly quests, limit OADs to one guild at a time (bosses could spawn when key is used), dragons could act like the Devourer event and no more world events with full pvp at bosses.

I don't particularly like the idea of removing so much pvp content, but I struggle to see another way to get rid of the incentives for people to form into two big groups.
Aka. Ackermann - Script/Build/Event.

Terron
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:16 pm

i am definitely against just making guilds boot people. thats not even right. and i play solo and still feel that way.

we have systems like heal decay pot decay to make fights end. even the evenly matched fights end fairly quick. whats lacking is the systems to make sure key fights are even. take seta for example, is fairly easy to lock the pillar rooms to 5 accts of any guild and block out guildless entirely and set the max accts per hour to be 7 or 8 so a huge guild cant instantly replace all sick people over and over.. let the players handle the rest. if they want to split into 3 guilds to have 15 people in there let em. as soon as they do make the keys bind to guild. people will get so greedy they will form smaller pacts anyway.

lastly another problem with numbers is kill to pass. now it may be a nice thing for a boss or serious oad. but when applied to keys or along paths it just ruins the chances of smaller groups to succeed. most monsters shouldnt lock you on square until death, they should just be needed to die to get past them. things like vila traps should just be 1 way ktp.

there is alot of abuse with ktps ingame
you can protect ktps and slaughter anyone with a weaker force.
you can heal ktps and slaughter anyone with a weaker force or cant out damage the healer.
you can just have numbers and kill anyone on a ktp pretty much at will.
you can track or follow noobs to ktps and end them.
all these just promote huge guilds.

why would you even try outnumbered opposed to just waiting until your guild is more active? everything is set times its not like you have to actually play the game. log on, look for numbers, log off or stay.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Zarkral
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:23 am

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Zarkral » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:51 pm

Terron wrote:...

True, about the KTP, everything really is in favour of the numerical stronger block. Yet another thing to consider if you want to get rid the incentives for big blocks to form.

Regarding splitting guild, sure it sounds better to put account limits on the keys over directly splitting, but it still has problems. If just one block splits into multiple guilds the other will be forced if it wants to compete at all. Even guild binding the key wouldn't stop a cross guild (within a block) party to simply run the OAD together, even if the key was guild only joins, the drops could still just be given to the other guild.
Aka. Ackermann - Script/Build/Event.

Terron
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:13 pm

nah thats why i said bind. so they cant just hand it over.

it binds to guild that picks it up or even KS's. it could be "picked up" by same guild as a gift but thats risky if there was a fight.

if people abuse the system by changing guilds rapidly put a 3 day cooldown on joining a guild if you leave a guild.

theres benefits to large guilds that at this point are probably needed to keep the game going.
BENEFITS:
new players can join the large guild and have access to a larger number of players to familiarize with.
they have access to greater knowledge and get to experience it first hand.
their play experience will generally be better with more people to hang out with.
they have a greater chance to acquire the gear they want via trades/oads
FAULTS:
players are introduced to a major drama system. including fueds from rok, which is dead, so get over it.
large guild system deters veterans from playing, although theres balancing systems we could try, and it isnt the only reason.


either way, i think we need to have large guilds ingame and a system of balances to make it so its still fair for everyone else and stays competitive.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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