Slayers and how to fix.

Rodeo
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Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Rodeo » Thu May 10, 2018 9:14 am

Right now we have ran into a road block with slayers being the only rounding class atm.
I know alot of us are old RoK slayer players and as much as we hate to see our beloved pking class get adjusted it really needs to happen.
We can pretty much round anything and dependent upon race eat pots like they are going out of style.

My suggestion to fix this problem is to lower the backstab multipler to what a brigands is but also add a blood letting skill that drains HP 5 HP per tick for 60 secs. This kinda puts Slayers inline with Zerkers the cloest DPS to them which use the same armor and arent able to hide from DPS. I have heard rumor of search being tampered with and I dont think the /search feature is the problem at all. Also to make Brigands Shine would be to add a poison skill to that class and this game might see more class diversity in events with new ways of playing a class instead of smash f1 then smash f2 or mouse clicky. lol

anthriel
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby anthriel » Thu May 10, 2018 8:00 pm

Im going to have to respectfully disagree that slayer damage needs nerfing because atm they are one of the only classes that can 'end' a large group fight when priests are involved. If slayer damage gets nerfed then you definitely need to nerf priest healing otherwise group fights of equal numbers tend to end up as 30+ min stalemates where ppl just burn through pots and loser is the group that eventually runs out. Personally, I'd rather log off and do something else than bother contesting keys etc if group fights end up as 30+ min stalemates with the loser being determined by who runs out of pots first. Or alternatively it just encourages even more tactical emphasis on outnumbering ppl to finish a fight which is unhelpful for game balance too.

In single PKing, I'm guessing slayers rarely succeed in rounding anyone unless the person is already damaged. Once no-exp loss comes in for lvlers I don't think slayer damage in 1v1 is an issue either.

Slayers r much better balanced already when NH made them not be able to use pots while hiding. Nerfing their damage probably means necessary nerfing of other classes (eg priests) so I don't think any change is neede there. The only thing that may need to be dealt with is the slayers 100% ability to avoid FF when hiding behind a Guard (making Druids in group fight useless). The guard /protect should count for something but granting 100% immunity is excessive.

That's my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Rodeo
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Rodeo » Fri May 11, 2018 6:53 am

Right now tho we are in the position of 1 class making a deciding factor in a stalemate. In 1 round i could either do 500 or 1200 damage depending on what slayer/div I use. I dislike Elders FF mainly cause a Elder is pretty much balanced If FF was changed to just reduce armor by 10 that would be more balanced. I would like to see suggestions on bringing other classes UP in terms of giving them skills that can counter other classes. Example Pallys could get a Bash Skill that could stun a player for X amount of secs which would turn the tide so to speak in these 30 min stalemates. I have been there buddy I feel ya. Priest is stunned they cant heal which forces players to use pots. Slayer gets stunned they cant deal that elite damage. Right now we are going in the direction of RoK where Slayer is the end all dps. Its not that i dont like the other classes its just that I like to win and am forced to play what wins. We need to realize this isnt rok and can be changed to not resemble a clone of it.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri May 11, 2018 9:28 am

I sort of agree with both of you, but i dont think nerfing slayers is the answer - upping other classes is.

First we need to define what classes are for what:
- PVE
- PVP
- Support

All PVP classes should be able to have a lower possibility to one round someone (or nearly so - one rounding someone is only possible with div, and mostly you need to be an Horc), or at least deliver an "alpha strike" type of damage. For example, Death mages could have a spell that enabled to have 2.5 damage for 2stam, or something.

Edit: Also, any class that gets damage to one round someone, should also get a spell to heavy counter it (like FF for slayers)
Edit2: Mixed feelings on guardians and FF - it actually gives guardians a use.
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Ohko
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Ohko » Fri May 11, 2018 10:20 am

anthriel wrote:The only thing that may need to be dealt with is the slayers 100% ability to avoid FF when hiding behind a Guard (making Druids in group fight useless). The guard /protect should count for something but granting 100% immunity is excessive.


I'm going to disagree with /protect here. Guardians are barely used as is, and /protect slayers/zerkers/gnomes are really the only function they have at the moment. Also casting sight on the blind.

There is also no counter to FF at the moment. Every other debuff (except wither) have a counter. slow <=> haste, rot <=> remedy, sap <=> power, blind <=> sight

My suggestion to prevent slayers from hiding forever is to set a limit to how long they could stay hidden. However, that would stress the server if 20 slayers are hiding at the same time so that's not currently possible.
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Terron
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Terron » Fri May 11, 2018 11:47 am

the main problem is wizard classes are lackluster. glass pellet guns.

" For example, Death mages could have a spell that enabled to have 2.5 damage for 2stam, or something."
thats about what a chanter does lol.

atm a 10 str brig out-dps a 20 int dm in pve and depending on the pvp situation i have to be honest here id rather take the brig because the damage is higher on 9 races

casters have 0 power to end a half orc in group fights. because they resist about 3/10 and u fizzle 1/10. the 2-3 hits u succeed each round isnt enough you need 3 casters to round 1 horc slayer(half orc always can pot mid round due to pot timer), then oops cleric got a heal in need another wizard. 4 heals? yeah just forget about it. saurian doesnt have the fast pot timer to ensure they can pot in the middle of each round and they have less hps so priests have to be on point. saurians tend to die horcs dont.

searching slayers is relatively easy, theres just no high int characters used besides healers(busy healing).

i think slayers are fine tbh, its the fact that there is no counter to them. FF is just a pause button. it wears off and slayer goes back to work absorbing heals from 3 priests and hitting 600+ x2. doesnt matter if they had 10 agi, sooner or later they land 2x and its game over.

mage cant kill a horc thats the real problem, mage cant even hurt goblin mr or any race thats higher mr.
mr per race doesnt scale with melee prowess. horc saurian and drakes get hit by spells the other 9 pretty much immune with just 1 potion a round.

imo the best move is to remove potion timer from horcs and set them to max 10 wisdom. then scale mr on races by changing the wisdom stat to gradually elevate per race as the melee output diminishes. dark elf and goblin especially they arent even much weaker than a drake/saurian and get hella mr for free.
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JadeFalcon
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby JadeFalcon » Fri May 11, 2018 4:29 pm

I think the problem is even before.
Do we want roles to exist, or do we want "all classes to be good at everything"?
If we want all classes to be good at everything, than enchanters are the last our worries - stalkers need like 2x damage.

Or do we want roles to exist? By roles i mean Support/PVE/PVP.

Support is the capability to support party members with heals/positive buffs
PVE is critical importance to fight high level mobs/OADS
PVP is critical importance to fight other parties.

If roles exist, the current distribution is:
- Support: Priests, Bards
- PVE: Brigands, Enchanters (dont laugh - enchanters are the only class required to finish certain oads/mobs, like casting SS on dragon, or /hover)
- PVP: Everyone else. And that is the huge problem, stemming from the "everyone must be great at everything" situation.

You might disagree with how alocated classes in the above - and that is the problem, we dont have an hollistic view of where each class sits - this needs to come with Nitehawk.
IF we had a proper allocation, then we could boost/nerf classes accordingly - to the point that in my opinion, if you want to run lets say the Seta Pillars, you can only hope to defeat the mob with Support/PVE chars, and risk wipeout if you take Support/PVP classes.

My point is, a Slayer "should" murder other people. That's in the name. Same with Death Mages. But they should be useless for other situations. On the other hand, overlooked classes such as Stalkers or Cavaliers should really be critical to take for OADs.
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Terron
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Terron » Fri May 11, 2018 5:02 pm

yeah i mean the roles are a major thing.

like chanter is it support? is it dps?

people call it support but minstrel supports better and heals for additional support. and if its support you cant really say its the "counter" to slayer.

slayer is a killer, its the only one that does what its supposed to really.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

anthriel
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby anthriel » Fri May 11, 2018 7:37 pm

Yeah I agree a lot with JF on this. I've always thought of chanter as a jack of all trades - can enchant, useful for oad, can stealth , can buff/debuff, can damage quite a lot to ppl with low mr etc. Very useful to have around really. (Druid kinda similar in having buffs/debuffs, heals, and ok damage). Chanters already got a large boost since last update (much more hps) and do decent damage so I dunno why Terron complain about them being crap. They were winning lots of KoTH etc too. You say gobs kill em but something has to be good against magic user. I mean the saurians n drakes r rightly getting fried (as we thought should happen) and the Horc slayer is well what it is (50/50 chance Mage or slayer wind depending on backstab luck)

Stalkers are pretty unloved. I hate lvling em and pet revive is less efficient than spawning golem/zombie for OAD. I find it amusing a freakin brigand can access ambush damage with bow and a stalker can't. (Brigs with bows seems stupid lore wise.... If younare far enough to use a bow how can u be close enough to pickpocket?... On other had stalker should be hiding in bushes ambushing ppls)

Cav shield bash having para effect would make them suddenly very interesting. Or another way to go would it be if the shield bash actually reflected 100% damage of a blocked melee shot (imagine the shocked slayer who cops his full backstab back lol - suddenly Knights would be non-stab targets for slayers).

But yeah the amt of exp needed to reach 25 is the other thing. I mean some classes probably should be worse if they only require a fraction of the exp that another class does. If we balance abilities then the question becomes whether cavs should really be 300m etc.

Shrugs - peace

Terron
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Re: Slayers and how to fix.

Postby Terron » Fri May 11, 2018 11:45 pm

well u can use my chanter if u like but most fights without pots ur playing a game where you hope absorbed hits will defeat unaffects. at 15 wisdom its pretty much 50/50. 17 wisdom (goblin equiv) u hit around 40% overall counting fizzles/resists similar to melee mage has 0 burst effect u either hit 7-9x really quick or u die. this tends to be mostly rng. you can hit 10/10 or miss all 10. 1v1 isnt really a problem or chanter as much as it is a dm.(see below)

the problem isnt that they do 0 damage. its the fact they have no burst potential and next to none on damage buffs. int song is unrealistic currently as mages tend to not hit that often on anything with mr. minstrel will buff physical attackers. u take a 24 int gnome mage and on avg if they manage 2/4 on an mr character thats 312 approximate damage on avg. potions heal 260. even with bard buffs the damage boost is around 18 extra damage max brings total to about 340. 80 net damage a round with 0 healers present and bard buffs.

lets stop and think...what if they are an elemental or elf chanter? oh right like 15min-30max less damage per hit. now ur getting to the point where pots cover the damage entirely. dm is the same way here they do awful damage. 20 int necro doesnt even see 145 damage with wither.

the lowdown is basically mages are only there to kill 10-12 wisdom characters with seemingly lower end hp tables. be it saurians/drakes or low wis minstrels and some zerks. but lets face facts here zerks are easier to kill with any other viable melee dps class.

my chanter has over 450 kills on it im pretty sure i know what is easy to kill lol. NOT half orcs. i can put money on it that 80+ of my 110+ deaths were exclusively half orc slayers and 60 of those trying to kill them 1v1. it doesnt happen they pot fast and kill me in less than 3 rounds most of the time. sad thing is most of the time they dont even ever get severely wounded. pretty much avoid them entirely unless its a surprise attack when they are wounded.

chanter is a decent support class, but it isnt an effective counter to low mr currently with priests healpower being almost 2x as much as blast/leech. also high dps chanters like gnomes are about as frail as u can get, i dont even sit still on mine. u cant. u will die.

edit: basically all that needs to happen is half orc slayers need to die to mages as fast as saurians do. not really anything drastic here. the highest melee power should die to magic the fastest right?
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"


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