Barbarian

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NiteHawk
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Re: Barbarian

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:29 pm

Terron wrote:because you are looking at 10000 attacks which ends up balanced and not small groups of 10-30 misses/hits that actually matter. which generally is all that matters. i can log a horc and hit 15/20, when this shit happens everyone dies back to back to back. i can log a ling and hit 20/20 and stuff dont die lol(considering pots). or i can log a ling and get hit by 19 agi 20/30 while he dodges everything. large streaks of missing inferior agi/hitting super agi 5/5 etc, all this stuff happens a little too often. basically just survive on huge damage until rng blesses you with a super round

if the characters lived 2500 rounds the agi stat might matter. its more like luck than actual agi.

only way a zerker is useable is behind a guard

you can use a shield too beef defense and get same blocks but honestly that just makes you hit worse than a ninja, with less stam,, less mr, less dodge, and still less armor. monks shouldnt even have armor since this game doesnt use armor to affect hit rates.


I don't disagree its feels more RNG, but it's probably hard to determine that. If your overall AGI is 50% and someone elses is 30%, regardless of what you say, those hits went somewhere where they missed a little more. It's hard to determine that. Obviously they're is luck, but that person with higher AGI will have more chances for luck and less chances to messup. In the end theres always RNG to it, but IMO that's really the RNG, messing up less and more chances at doing better.

Anywho agree to disagree and all that for that.

As I said, zerkers don't really fail regardless cause of agi loss to dodge, like most classes, they struggle to hit in a row. Maybe it's MR more but that's not the argument atm. Monks and zerkers have the same HR and zerkers even get the benefit of not require hits in a row UNTIL raging. However monks get +1 attack and I think this makes all of the difference for chances. That and it probably feels like not being able to rage all three would be annoying, specially because one rage in terms of multiplier isn't as high as a RH (though it's because they have higher damage in general). A monk fighting a zerker would probably ultimately mean the monk wins in 1vs1 purely for the extra agi vs loss of agi, also meaning they'd RH them more often. But there will always be a class better then another (and regardless I don't think this'll change in the monk vs zerker situation because of there bonuses, but zerkers should be alright in non magic situations, or that' the goal. Monks right now get too much of everything and they're good at killing magic so at the moment they're better overall. I think with a few tweaks they can be alright though, just needs looking at.

Yeah, I agree about armors, it's something that is going to be looked at anyways.

Terron
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Re: Barbarian

Postby Terron » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:04 pm

i mean alot of it is just potions. most classes only do 250-320 damage a round. so in the case of a zerker who gets hit easier vs a ninja that doesnt and gets 1 more attack. odds are the zerker is just falling 100 hps a round lower until it dies, ninja is pottng and staying full health unless zerk is lucky. just multiplied disadvantage in group fights because taking an extra 2 or 3 hits vs 6 people means ur dead, not to mention in group everyone is buffed so ninjas blasting zerks for 200s and 400 rhs or slayers smokin' half+ of your life away in 1 poke(even gnome ones) the problem is you have to avoid death to actually kill someone, and thats hard on a zerker w/o a guard.

as far as the rng, theres noone denying that it doesnt balance out in the longterm. most event fights see whack rng all the time.and its over in such a small amount of rounds theres no balancing it out, its already too late and youre in a temple or your opponent is.

the math is the easiest part to find. your system is percentile but rolled on a 7 integer system. 1d100(3 integer) system would have X anomalies. 1d1000000 (7 integer) system will have the base X anomalies *10 to the 4th power.

now if u understand that portion, congrats. if not, heres the short version.
1d100 isnt very random /1d1000000 is very random
embers system is ten thousand times more likely to see:
lizards and drakes resist 12+x in a row
horc slayers hitting 8x in a row
lings 24-27 agi missing 85+% on 19 agi until its over.
etc

perhaps only 1 or 2 decimals on the roller would tighten it up a bit? just a wild guess.
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anthriel
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Re: Barbarian

Postby anthriel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:37 pm

IMHO this goes back to the larger 1v1 vs scaling for group fights (eg6v6+) issue

-1.25 dodge agi doesn’t make much diff in 1v1 and in my experience many zerkers do decently in 1v1.... but in group fight they are likely gonna die a lot faster cos u have potentially 6+ players (several of them slayers or ninjas or chanters with high dps) focus-firing on your zerker... and that’s when every little bit of agi counts. That’s why ppl prefer ninja (who get free agi bonus to dodge and free me bonus too, plus the additional attack per round). Compared to that the zerker +8% hp bonus isn’t worth it cos it’s so much more easily wiped out by focus fire attacks. In group pvp the main tactic is to focus fire on the enemy char with lowest Hp or lowest dodge for the easiest kill so as to gain numerical superiority (the real underlying way to win everything). A lot of the times that’s the zerker who is targeted first due to lower dodge. And so they die. And this is likely why ppl think zerkers r trash. It’s partly due to the agi minus (whether that be driven by reality or perception - probably abit of both). Peace

Terron
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Re: Barbarian

Postby Terron » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:11 pm

theres also a bit of a problem with the damage formulas scaled vs potions. common potions shouldnt practically render you immune to 1v1 damage.

i mean id run a zerk with 1 hander and shield but you literally hit like a ninja with less damage and stam and mr and dodge and you lose all bonuses the class has of rounding people rarely.

i mean yeah i could flurry 3x in a row but they will likely be missed or absorbed anyway.

every character that has flaws is heavy target
so zerks,lizards, low agi get targeted alot. you know who isnt targeted much? the high mr ninjas lol
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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NiteHawk
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Re: Barbarian

Postby NiteHawk » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:08 pm

Terron wrote:perhaps only 1 or 2 decimals on the roller would tighten it up a bit? just a wild guess.


No, it won't make a difference.

anthriel wrote:-1.25 dodge agi doesn’t make much diff in 1v1 and in my experience many zerkers do decently in 1v1.... but in group fight they are likely gonna die a lot faster cos u have potentially 6+ players


Yeah it would effect them more in groups for sure. It's still 2.25% chance for each physical attack per person more. It'll add up with more people.

every character that has flaws is heavy target
so zerks,lizards, low agi get targeted alot. you know who isnt targeted much? the high mr ninjas lol


Yeah MR ninjas have a bit too much bonuses, I understand that bit anyways. :>

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daedroth
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Re: Barbarian

Postby daedroth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:37 am

Add HP variances to all the classes?

Barbs right now +8%, knights +5%.
Give monks/assy (etc) -5%.

Side effects:
It would make little sense to have a sorcy (etc) with more HP than assy/monk, which would mean they would likely get a HP deduction which would only cause further problems... however game balance doesn't need to make sense.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Terron
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Re: Barbarian

Postby Terron » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:40 am

no, just no

so people can farm mega hps?

i like building chars and doing HP play on weak classes. and u know how much extra hps help a mage, almost none.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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JadeFalcon
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Re: Barbarian

Postby JadeFalcon » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:08 am

Zerkers are OK 1vs1
But since they don't dodge so well, they are immediately targeted in PVP party combat, since they will just soak up damage until dead, because they have their natural AGI nerf.

So why not disabled this AGI nerf when being targeted by other players AND in a party?
This way, a Zerker wouldnt be disadvantaged by being "natural targets"
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Re: Barbarian

Postby Kruell » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:22 pm

JadeFalcon wrote:But since they don't dodge so well, they are immediately targeted in PVP party combat, since they will just soak up damage until dead, because they have their natural AGI nerf.


I've seen event groups fail because they target the wrong player at first. The zerker is an option but it isn't an automatic choice. I used to win pp on my lvl 23~24 characters because people would make the wrong choice and try to take out the 23 agi gobby monk or the human paladin without realizing the chance of rounding them were near 0 so my team would take out one or two of theirs before they got me down... winning team pp. :P A ling zerker doesn't do a lot of damage compared to other races but even with the agi penalty they still dodge like mad. Trying to target them first is a bad idea in most cases since a dark elf slayer will probably go down faster.

Giving them heavier armor is an idea but it only makes a small change. I think it's worth it as they don't need a lot to make them a serious contender in events. I'd rather make small tweaks and see how effective they are than see something that creates different sets of factors for different situations in game. When you make characters react differently depending upon the situation (solo vs party or pvp vs pve) then balancing the character becomes very difficult.
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Re: Barbarian

Postby Terron » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:01 pm

armor buffs in group are the magic. when upwards of 20 attacks get absorbed in a row you become indestructible, especially if you can heal.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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