Guilds Redux

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Mort » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:41 pm

What is it that we're trying to accomplish? Make the game friendlier to smaller guilds/solo play.

Why is this a problem? Not everyone wants to be in or deal with empire.(Use to be sihl) The game should not be decided by who has the most players or else we will continue to see an imbalance. I'd like to see people come back.

On your end, what can you do to fix it with or without game changes? Without changes I can quit like most of the people I have played with in the past.

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Aftershock » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:10 pm

Hey, i'm on my phone so may look a little messy. (figured i'd have a little natter about this since i got a minute)

Limiting Guilds to 10 accounts per is just going to create more drama than it's worth. You will just end up with different people in the Guilds daily. Said person doesn't log on or comply they will get removed and replaced. Then you're gonna end up with more small guilds with 2-3 people in them. Just doesn't seem a legit possibilty that will work.

Removing Guilds for me would work. You may use Discord but honestly, i don't see it happening. You can integrate a proper LFG system that can help with OADS or just let the game flow. Right now Guilds don't mix on OADS. Even when said Guild have 5 online, they won't ask another Guild if they got a member who wants to go. They will just leave it and not bother until they have people (Kinda sucks this way when other Guilds who can't get OADS could use loot). You remove alot of Guild drama and alot of PvP drama (including events). The new chat stuff you added in update will probably get alot more use (no idea what use it has now).

Divinity Guilds is another good idea but i think for this you would need to make /ignore work for Guild chat too. You will always have those trolls. Always. Would make it a nice way to add Div OADS and areas. Would also solve some of above. PvP would be interesting.

Lat mentioned an auto join type way for OADS which sounds great. That should be added!

IMO Guilds need removing. Would kinda suck to do it with the work you put into Guild Halls but honestly, people would work together rather than against if this would be to happen. Those going against this idea right now would obviously be the people who are siting pretty with a big Guild. I like that AJ said he supports whatever NH does. Fair play to him, he's a good dude.

I could be wrong but from the start, Guilds have been an issue. People are and have quit because of it. The Toxicity has mainly come from Guilds spatter too.

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Miach » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:43 pm

It's not all Empire's fault. Stop blaming others.

What can YOU do to positively impact the position of guild dominance? Why is every solution a massive coding overhaul?

I think that there's a ton of finger pointing going on about quitting because of this or that, but no one is man enough to say that they quit because they just got disinterested in the daily grind. Could people form up and fight? Sure. Is there plenty of people who are not Empire who could form up and fight? Sure. The problem isn't guild domination. The effect is guild domination, and the cause is...? People getting bored? Not having enough fun? Realizing they don't have the time commitment to play actively and the casual gamer gets the shaft?

The blame is honestly far too often put on an external factor. When people in this world want something, they stand together and fight for it and historically the political activists and activists for other reasons get stuff done and make a difference. What's happening is that instead of actually doing something about it, everyone wants NH to do something about it.

It's become a coding issue because of the laziness/casualness of others. When I asked for everyone to look at internal factors, what I'm looking for you to say is that you could do something about it. While a coding change might be a good idea, is there some other way to tackle the issue?

By the way, Empire doesn't really have that many actives. They have their good days at 10 or so, and their bad days at 2-5 or so, and they average about 4 actives at a time (using recent statistics). They commonly have the "raise the dead" on discord to fill a 5 man party and get a OaD completed. These are not overwhelming numbers. Sure, Empire has had better numbers, and so has any other major guild in the game.

It is a problem that needs to be addressed by actually competing. You're not trying.

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Dan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:16 pm


I don't think that guilds are the problem. The problem is guild dependance.

Join the big one or struggle.

In my opinion, the best way out of it is:

-craft system with items equally good as oads

-Oads being guild instanced

Any of the above options would help, even implemented separatedly.

That would end in guild member reduction anyway, but not a forced one.

People would have the option to choose from:

- More guild bonuses and oad drop competition with other members (bigger guild)


- Fewer guild bonuses and more oading drops (less competition for drops - smaller guild).

A casual could join the bigger guild and craft his items, or join a smaller guild and hit oads in a guild that plays in the same time of the day.

Idk know how hard a instanced based oad would be to implement tho.


I was thinking, you don't necessarilly need to instance oads, but you can make the craft system guild based, and limit the number of crafts per week, for example.

But fixed amount to all guilds, not scalable to guild size.

That would have the same, or even better effect of instancing oads (which would still be be neat), regarding people spreading in other guilds.

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Mort » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:32 pm

Wasn't blaming Empire they are just the current face of the issue that has been around since I started.
You asked what I could do. Not what we could do as a players(maybe you think two forced guilds would be better), with the options you've given without coding it's one of three things.
Join the big guild and be part of the problem, Shut up and watch it still be 20 empire vs 8 of everyone else(doesn't matter if you remove the number of online members on gtop),or find something else to do with my time. My opinion won't change with the shift to me to prove the problem is a problem. If Nitehawk is willing to code a solution then great if not then it is what it is.

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Kruell » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:17 pm

I have a habit of writing down random thoughts and musings. When I came back to this game months ago I wrote down my experiences and observations. I have a whole section of my writings devoted to guilds. One of the most glaring things I noticed about Ember was that while people complained about guilds, the game is designed to funnel people into guilds. I don't just mean guild membership for OaD completion, I mean to fully enjoy the game past level 16(ish) you need to be in a guild. Playing the game solo after a certain point becomes difficult to the point of mind numbing banality. The way that builder philosophy has structured this game, you must be in a guild once you get to a certain level or you can't complete quests, get equipment upgrades, or even level effectively. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but at the same time it forces players into the social stigma and infighting that comes along with joining a guild. There needs to be more to this game than just joining the right guild at the right time.

Guild dominance is a problem that appears greater than it really is because people confuse their own apathy with another guild dominating them. I have seen Empire not do OaDs at all (even collect keys) and the guilds that get the keys refuse to run the OaDs. I've seen Empire invite other guilds along (not anymore due to Discord drama) on OaD runs and the other guilds get the item. I assume Silh faced some of the same complaints and issues when they were the largest guild. Before the one guild per account I was in a few guilds. Most of what I heard was ultimately an issue of motivation and not an issue of another guild oppressing others. Even the Kill/Death counter, which was a good idea, has become a reason for people to run away and cry foul if they think they are going to be outnumbered and die. Perception has overtaken reality in many facets of the game. The issue keeps coming back to guilds, as if guilds are the core problem. The reality I believe is that the game has become structured around guild warfare and all other methods of play have been ignored.

Cutting down on the number of accounts that can be in a guild is a viable option. Cutting the number too low will be destructive. Removing guilds from the game goes counter to every game treatise written over the last 15 years on MUD design. Social interaction stimulated by guilds is necessary for a healthy player base. Forcing people into guilds where the membership is determined by administration is probably going to be a major problem. Do we really want to force people into a guild with people they can't stand and constantly fight with?

I suggest that builders open up the world a bit more. Create content that is meant for a solo player or even a small team where being in a guild isn't necessary. Implement the World Embers which benefit smaller guilds more than larger. Expand quests so players can level up without having to join a guild so they can get an effective party together. Use the tools already in game and borrow ideas from other successful games to implement things that break the mold of "X Guild pwns all". Players and staff should come up with other event ideas so people can gain PP without being swarmed by one guild or an alliance of enemy guilds. Some of these things are in the works and others can actually benefit the game if they are tried.

Look at creating monthly "leader-boards" for the game. Create a point system and let players and guilds compete against each other for the top spot. Things like "most NPCs killed by X Player" or "Most NPCs killed by X Guild" in a month; most gold acquired in a month; most Experience gained by a guild during a month. These things don't reward anything except bragging rights but it also gives a better view of what is actually happening in game.

I'll leave it at this and see how others feel... otherwise I'll break the board with a novel.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Whitestar » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:06 am

Kruell For Prez.

Guild dominance is a problem that appears greater than it really is because people confuse their own apathy with another guild dominating them.

Show up (means empire too)

sorry i cant be helpful i get pretty much that something needs to be done. im a problem finder not solver

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Terron » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:33 am

really just need to incentivise smaller guilds. the oad design (mainly keys) of the older oads just make it so u need huge numbers to do the oad. been this way since archfiend was only oad. gotta get 5 keys within 2 days before expiration kills your hope. gotta get 2 keys within 1 day in a 4v10 atmosphere. this is why there are huge guilds.

as far as i see it, keys favor big guilds. death sickness favors big guilds. healing and potion decay favors big guilds.

oads themselves do not favor large guilds and thats about the only thing that doesnt. a guild of 5 would get outfitted alot easier than a guild of 15 they just wont win keys. crafting would fix alot of it imo.

i think if a guild can happily keep dozens of members, then staff shouldn't tear that down, just looks bad, and wont get the desired results youre lookin for.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby Whitestar » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:45 am

shiv, cavs, second floor all are smaller guild accessible keys. remember when silhouette sent 6 to shiv empire on occasion still managed to get. cavs and second floor are mana's dependent and generally done as little members as possible (since seemingly no one wants to do)

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Re: Guilds Redux

Postby anthriel » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:16 am

Things I largely agree with that others have pointed out:
    1. Guilds are good for games. I do like guild diversity and having some sort of way to group like minded people to work for common goals. I prefer to often play as an individual nowadays but i did like the guild diversity of ROK and I’d join a guild again if they had similar ideals (its abit hard to find a superguild that mirrors my ideals tho cos too many players in them)

    2. Game build is favoured towards joining guilds (as kruell mentioned) and unfortunately build design like keys requiring large parties to farm or OADs appearing several hours after the key appears necessitate big guilds (as mentioned by Terron).

    3. Loot system issues (eg OADs) have always been closely related to guild issues. There should be other ways of progressing towards top gear than merely joining the powerhouse guilds and placing oneself on an oad farming roster - eg crating (like Hanibal mentioned) or ranking tables (like kruell mentioned)

Things I disagree with that others have raised:
    1. “Current guild system is not a problem”. Yes it is. The reason is that the current system has no answer for “bigger numbers is always better”. There’s literally zero drawback to keeping as many actives or inactives on your roster as you possibly can. There’s very little incentive not to join a big faction also. This leads to the current climate of superguid factionalism whereby half the player base is conditioned to hate the entire other half and toxic drama spreads like wildfire. If you are friends with group A it’s hard to also make friends with ppl associate with group B. Game becomes a chore of logging into deal with psychological warfare & drama between factions rather than something relaxing and fun.

    2. “Issue is a player issue, not a coding one”. There’s some truth to the fact that players (like all humans in society) are broken/flawed. That’s why we have laws and whatnot. Governments step in to keep things as fair and functional as possible. All this “what can you do to be a better person” is all nice and good but most societies don’t rely on this alone. They have police and legal systems etc to ensure society functions well. That’s what the coders of the game provide. If the current laws are creating bad outcomes for the community, they need to step in and make ones that produce better outcomes.

    3. “Let’s just make some world events to force ppl from the current 2 superguilds to work together and that will solve the problems” - to me at the heart of this game is pvp and competitiveness. I don’t think many rok alumni aren interested in solely cooperative pve interaction. And one or 2 forced events of this aren’t going to undo all the toxicity that factionalism causes outside of this. The game is best where there is competition but not a black and white faction A vs B competition imho. More colour and unpredictability in competition would make it far more interesting.

Basically I think it’s good to keep some semblance of the guild system but there needs to be a serious counter-adjustment to the current “bigger numbers is always better” truism (eg some lucrative enough incentives to make ppl think very selectively before adding to their roster). Some build adjustments to allow alternative ways to progress etc besides guild play (eg crafting, rankings, changes to OAD keys etc as others have suggested) is also a helpful avenue of investment. But whatever build adjustments are done it can’t just be within the current “bigger numbers is always better” frame otherwise it’s useless to fixing the problem (eg if you can still craft many times faster in a big guild or get still get keys for smaller OADs faster in big guild etc). Whoever it was who suggested something like limiting the amounts of crafting that guilds could do (make it slower for bigger guilds to outfit everyone) was on to the right idea. There either has to be drawbacks to being too big like that, or adequately lucrative incentives for going small (eg global embers could come in here but honestly the benefits need to be much more exponential than NH’s previous imaginings cos theres no point getting an extra +1str for being in a small guild
when that’s not going to help you stand your ground at all when outnumbered 4to1 against a larger guild).

Will keep thinking on possible equitable solutions. Peace.

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