1.7.1.x Feedback

Terron
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby Terron » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:50 am

daedroth wrote:Make stealth an INT/AGL combo.


that just turns halflings into gnomes that dodge and hit better...
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JadeFalcon
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby JadeFalcon » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:24 am

Again i agree with piddy.
The issue with horcs, saurians and darkes isnt being fried to MR - that was always expectable and i daresay desirable. We cant have all races being "good at everything".

The issue is not being strong enough versus races that have MR. As is, it takes a fool to play a saurian, if you are going to be killed by chanters AND by every other race that has MR.
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daedroth
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby daedroth » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:06 am

Terron wrote:
daedroth wrote:Make stealth an INT/AGL combo.


that just turns halflings into gnomes that dodge and hit better...


Well it can be fudged in any way to be desirable (capped at 20 for example (if INT is lower than 20) or 1/4 AGL + 3/4 INT (min INT), If INT > AGL/INT mix then it goes by INT, etc etc).
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NiteHawk
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:38 pm

We been recording the last few days and honestly HOs are played pretty heavily. In many of the obits they are used pretty often. I'm not sure if they are the problem race here, though people claim it. That's what worries me, some of the basis needs to be tested way more. By more than one person, etc. We need more details/input from others too.

Here is some general stats on what's being played:

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The pareto concept pretty much says that 20% of the classes will always represent the majority of what most people play. It doesn't really matter what we do there. The other 80% classes will often be the other minority. It obviously isn't a exact rule, but you'll always see a spike on what's the current fashion, i suppose.


Obviously there are niche roles like bards/etc. HOs seem to be pretty played.

The killboards been lite up with HO kills as wells. Actually, mostly HOs, and GNOMES. though DEs are the most used they only show up half the time on KBs. I'm not gonna go hardcore on this just yet, but I been recording the last few days for PVE and PVP. I'm not going to split anything up just yet but:

By recrods I mean this is what we have so far. Mind you we didn't start recording PVE until yesterday so it's a lot lower. When I say HOs - 86, it means how many times they appear in the above PVP/PVE fights. I will say that Hos are mostly PVP though, and actually do kill.

PVE RECORDS: 47
PVP RECORDS: 133
HOs: 86
DEs: 34
GNOMES: 68
GOBLINS: 16
SAURIANS: 5
---

Obv there are other races, but I'm excluding them for now as they aren't being talked about. Obviously at least 40% of slayers are HO too. There are actually a ton of DE slayers apparently though.

I'm not saying saurians don't need adjustments, I do think they may need some tweaks, but saying that all those races are bad with no data is a problem. They are clearly having high usage and even more in combat, so I assume they must be liked/used. It could be due to less casters being around or simply people like high damage and it is the highest damage you can do - but it is a thing.

I'm still gathering data though. I do see some issues with certain races though as it progresses for usefulness.

Terron
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby Terron » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:52 pm

pretty sure you know the reason and logic behind all that. gnomes kill 10 wis. hiders kill anything at a ktp except healers. protected horc slayers kill everything ingame sooner or later. it isnt a new concept, every class can hit people but they will run away. half orcs put em in the grave.

yeah pretty much guessed it, every situation the recipient of death is helplessly stuck, or dead in 1 round.

edit: this is also because saurians lost the ability t round people with dagger rework they pretty much never round people now.

myself i track people or sensor trap and if theyre alone in a ktp i bring a gnome and kill them. if they have low healing or a small group i get someone to guard my horc. usually they are stuck at a ktp also. if i want to just jump someone with low wisdom its just chanters.

its less so about race as it is gimmicks of the environment and what actives are using.
-in most cases u can bring any healer to a ktp and kill anyone u want. healing is too powerful
-guards protecting half orc slayers and slaughtering people 2v6. again healing way too powerful (guards shouldnt have heal, cure is fine)
-guards or healers protecting and healing monsters until you die? yeah dont think this has been said before...
-kill to pass? no this game doesnt have kill to pass, it has kill to escape. if it was kill to pass you could still retreat freely.
-anything attacking you that cant round you? just run to a temple and click heal. and somehow instantaneous healing isnt costing over 120 gold? temple healing shoul cost 10-100x what potion healing costs

these issues have been posted in here time and again, its just now more than a small group is using it as an advantage. now it is the meta.
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this game is like sim ant
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daedroth
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby daedroth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:11 am

Terron wrote:pretty sure you know the reason and logic behind all that. gnomes kill 10 wis. hiders kill anything at a ktp except healers. protected horc slayers kill everything ingame sooner or later. it isnt a new concept, every class can hit people but they will run away. half orcs put em in the grave.

yeah pretty much guessed it, every situation the recipient of death is helplessly stuck, or dead in 1 round.

edit: this is also because saurians lost the ability t round people with dagger rework they pretty much never round people now.

myself i track people or sensor trap and if theyre alone in a ktp i bring a gnome and kill them. if they have low healing or a small group i get someone to guard my horc. usually they are stuck at a ktp also. if i want to just jump someone with low wisdom its just chanters.

its less so about race as it is gimmicks of the environment and what actives are using.
-in most cases u can bring any healer to a ktp and kill anyone u want. healing is too powerful
-guards protecting half orc slayers and slaughtering people 2v6. again healing way too powerful (guards shouldnt have heal, cure is fine)
-guards or healers protecting and healing monsters until you die? yeah dont think this has been said before...
-kill to pass? no this game doesnt have kill to pass, it has kill to escape. if it was kill to pass you could still retreat freely.
-anything attacking you that cant round you? just run to a temple and click heal. and somehow instantaneous healing isnt costing over 120 gold? temple healing shoul cost 10-100x what potion healing costs

these issues have been posted in here time and again, its just now more than a small group is using it as an advantage. now it is the meta.


Good points.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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NiteHawk
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:45 am

I understand the points but I don't think we're balancing on a 1vs1 means really. I think that would make many healers completely useless. I don't disagree that heal/cure could be looked at now, but the issue pretty much comes from do you make group fighting more important or 1vs1 important. At the moment we're choosing the first, party vs party. There may be a mechanic that can help this but I don't know of any that won't make healers kind of unwanted/unneeded. I do see the issue in a KTP room though and using a healer against the target.

For temple healing, that's a bit of a tough area. Maybe it should be based on level too or work with some sort of timer, but it's kind of borderline making the game unfun and painful. But x100 times? You want instant healing to be 10k? Maybe in a wallet that plays hardcore might work, but for most others that's a good way to pretty much end temple healing altogether. I think though this would pretty much make leveling a lot more annoying too.

Honestly it's not much harder to go get a food/water item and drink up/heal up. Perhaps templing can give a similar effect instead of healing, but that only gives an extra 10-20s depending on combat timer + the amount healed per tick.Then again if that was the case, it would probably even be cheaper cause its literally just a food item with a delay.

In terms of half-orcs though, it's still debatable. Yeah, they die to magic casters, but they actually 'can' kill magic casters too. It's not like they are gimped completely. This doesn't mean that other races couldn't use tweaking, but they don't seem bad. You still got to look at how they are used in general. Giving HOs heavy AC and +1 str to me seems a bit rough based on them being used all the time even now. If they have a use, and many are playing them, I don't think it's terrible, perspective wise. Saurians, HEs, Humans, seem to have slight problems, Drakes are conversational as they are good but at specific roles really though might be on that list too, etc.

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Styx
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby Styx » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:32 am

The instant healing is also useful for those who want to fight in game rooms etc , not just pvp battles.

The ktp is in retreating as well as advancing. If your being attacked the monster is not going to let you run sometimes. Hence principal of ktp or ktr , kill to retreat

A priest in a ktp, it takes forever and they would obviously attack priest. Priest only choice is heal since it's not a dps or fighter class. It will be a very long fight cause the monster would have to do most of the fighting.

Terron
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby Terron » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:42 am

horcs are everything in group fights! Or not. the whole meta is just guarding horcs and sometimes a caster if your opponents bring 10 wisdom trash unprotected. buffed horc slayers with div and good weapons can round dwarves from full hps. but thats just it buffs guarding healing to survive. its the support that wins the fights. they get no credit. numbers numbers numbers whoever has the most protected super dps wins. after logging all the proper support to ensure your party isnt going to be thrashed, you only have room for 1-2 dps characters. those are most likely going to be slayers with higher str because the other team is doing the same and there is 0 chance to kill anyone unless those 2 dpsers can chance round people. and thats where casters fall short...low hps and no shield. they get chance rounded the most.

truth is guards have no weaknesses at all and heal for 130+ with 17 int and 148+ with 20 int. its nearly impossible to kill one 1 on 1, especially when pot decay is like 40x faster than heal decay. i have won 3v3 tournaments w/o even using heal lol just cure and conserve mana.

when is a priest going to become essential again? theres 2 oads you even need to consider a priest that arent mirrors. you can just oad with a paladin or minstrel or even some elders. paladins are warriors healing oads, minstrels are rogues healing oads. elders atleast start as healers and have severe weakness when running heal mode (unmorphed no shield no armor).

you want to balance group. remove aid from priests, remove heal from guards, make minstrels selfheal only. minstrels are buffers they dont need to buff and heal group for 140s. guardians are protectors and shouldn't be self sustaining vs overwhelming odds, losing heal would make them vulnerable in the long term w/o a true healer. priest wont be an obsolete stain in account manager. you will see those horcs die once in awhile when guards can actually die. people have pots and should have to venture forth and learn F2.


on the issue with horcs they have better defense than saurians because it all boils down to hps. horcs dont get rounded by a caster and sometimes survive even 2 casters. saurians dont, as u seen in squire event. the issue is horcs arent glass cannons lol they are iron cannons. wouldnt have nearly the issues if the super strong 25 str race was sittin on 18 endurance.

edit: temple healing can have a free foodlike heal over time thats similar to a ration. but i think in generality 25ers clicking heal for 100 gold running out smacking people and repeating til their horc or chanter rounds someone is a bit foolish. free heal over time or 100 gold per level to instant heal.
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this game is like sim ant
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Styx
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Re: 1.7.1.x Feedback

Postby Styx » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:01 am

Remember back when people hated on priests cause they had heavy armor? So now they changed to light armor with aegis. All in the name people couldn't wipe them out.

So now people pick something new to hate upon? Is the real problem people can't wipe out one group yet again?

Nothing will ever be absolutely equal no matter , if that was the case then we would all be one race, with one skill, all attacking with absolutely the same amount of damage. How boring would that gameplay be in the end ?

And maybe it's that small amount of variety that changes things, and with an introduction of more choices it will complicate things even more, leading down the path of person a feels person b should be exactly the same yet again.

In the end, it's just a game, run around kill stuff, have some competition with others, make a few friends, and take some to time to relax.


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