What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

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NiteHawk
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What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:37 pm

I'm kind of trying to figure out why people are saying 12 wis is 'unaffect city' by some peoples terms. (12 wis cav is only 32 dodge but yeh)

I want to point out since people were freaking out about it, and to now, the wis formula was NOT changed. I can't change it to the build update without breaking alot of things before updating, so I have not bothered. The base formula is hard coded at the moment, and still is, so I cannot tweak it easily.

10 wis is about 25%, 12 wis is about 32% and 18 wis is about 56%, not including any other bonuses, I think max was 60% or 64% to dodge right now depending on race/class/wis.

To me that's still lower than most high end AGI chars dodges so I'm curious to know what the dealio is as this was tweaked on the build server slightly to make higher wisdom SLIGHTLY more beneficial with more wis. Looking at around another 4-5% more resistance at 19wis, about the same with 10wis.

Could be that their damage is jsut lower compared to others/etc instead, if its based on duels.

Terron
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Terron » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:16 pm

i think everyone stopped using anything but goblin and dark elf monks/ninjas. that about sums it up for characters. you hit 3/10 maybe and they are just drakes with -50 hps or -5 damage and +30 hps. biggest thing was mages are easy to equip and so they hit the ground running so to speak. you have stoneskin which makes you shine in green armor. now after it being a few months, everyone has decent equipment and embers on their new "high mr" ninjas and mage is toast.

next thing is fizzles, it seems like fizzles jumped exorbitantly all of a sudden.

lastly promises of mana nerfs and reduced heals, with the promise of meaningful "mana consumption" replacing those precious potions.
mages were wrecking groups awhile but we started getting more and more players. in a 5v5 4 chanters can kill even vs 3 healers. but the game has become upwards of 12v12 and mages dont last at all. especially when slayers are around. slayers are far too equipped now slappin 750s and shit is dumb. im out of mana all the time on a chanter if the fight lasts, you have to pot religiously. this is why i stopped taking mine to fights where i cant move.

an example is i took a chanter 984 hps to thanatos and had 3 priests in group spamming heals on me..i died in 6 rounds to 1 ninja and 1 slayer. they just flat out, out damaged what the priests could regen and heal.

really all that happened racial choice improved and weapons obtained improved now mages suck again.

damage isnt exactly great because soo much can round a mage especially a gnome one, and u just cant round them back to defend yourself. i mean i can take a saurian slayer and kill any mage in open play pretty much. is it harder then stabbing a leveler? yea. mage has become a waste of a party slot for pvp(better off with more heals buffs(minstrel) and guards for the army of slayers. theres no need to worry about druids or chanters because theyll be dead before it even matters. mage has become an opportunistic 1 round kill class. to fail or not fail. yeah they are a magical assassin. jokes.
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Lateralus
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Lateralus » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 pm

It’s a good point. Chanters started strong because their damage was not based on weapons so when no one was equipped they shined. however once everyone got geared casters Dps stayed the same while others passed them more and more. Coupled with that and everyone running high Mr crits their effectiveness is much lower now a days.

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JadeFalcon
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby JadeFalcon » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:40 pm

1vs1 Necros and chanters are very very strong, but not OP: Depends on the WIS of who they fight.

For parties.. Necros should have more damage. Because we need a mage class with damage, and it just makes sense.
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Inverno
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Inverno » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:07 pm

People moved to high wis chars, like DEs and Gobs.

Anyway, even with those races, fighting a necro 1x1 is hard cause of slow+wither+sap combination. And Chanter still do good damage.

My perception is: low MR stand no chance against mages, high MR still have hard times fighting them. They still on top for 1x1.
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Terron
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Terron » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:38 pm

the problem with the mr system is that the fluctuation for spells is 2x the range of melee so its making the rng on spells not there. you go into fights and miss everything lol. the damage in 1v1s is there if you hit. big portion of it is mages take damage and people are using purple weapons more than greens now so the damage is just getting incrementally higher for melee users. this is allowing them to pick lower str and high mr freely and still outdps a drake in green/blue weapons for instance. and all this happens while a mage has No ability to increase damage at all.

i dunno if we can balance this out by increasing base spell hit rate and lowering the mr per wis so mages can hit the 18 mr stalemate or some of the high mr races with extremely high physical stats need lower mr to a degree. i mean with the str agi and end being high dark elf and goblin seem to need an mr nerf already. every goblin melee character gets 4 perfect stats, a +1 wherever they want, bonus hps from extra point in charisma, bonus MR on top of getting maxed wisdom, and last but not least spell negation. that is insanity and even more so when you just pick ninja to boost all of that even more.

alot of the stuff stems because allocation is only based on race. where as i think races should get less allocation by a bit and class add different amounts of bonus allocation points. in this way each class can be penalized or bolstered with allocation influence

as to answer nitehawks inquiry as to why people say 12 wis>mage, its the mages damage output in direct comparison to potions. its sometimes hard to beat a saurian or drake at times if u arent slamming 4/4s every round and especially if u search. and its basically pointless to try on a dm. i think this is only outside of events. inside events i think 15 wis loses a fair bit to mages and 16 17 or 18 wis are huge steps in no longer losing to mage.
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Terron
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Terron » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:02 pm

@tyrargo i always depicted an enchanter as a mediocre mage who drew more power from items damage from weapons, ac from armor, heals from items or even wards from protective objects. where as a necro is more of a summoner with death magic as opposed to an actual summoner. i think what needs to happen, and im being honest here, is chanters need replaced as a dps mage class.

chanters need to become a support caster thats tough to kill but does lower damage. i think they need to buff better than minstrel defensively (not power) they need a better stoneskin, a moderate heal spell, and item buffing spell to increase bonuses from rings/amulets etc. i might even go as far as allowing them to equip light armor instead of cloth if the above ideas and boosts dont make them hard to kill. but again i reiterate they need to lose damage.

chanter would be replaced as the predominate dps caster and a newer warlock or something can be made. with maybe a 2 stamina cost spell that deals high damage like 2.25x what blast does. may not seem like much of a boost, but obviously having to roll vs mr half as much means twice as many perfect rounds as the current chanter. i think that would be an effective counter to no mr. can always be boosted later.
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Kruell
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Kruell » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:35 pm

Would making their pet's damage grow exponentially help? If tweaks are made to necros debufs to make them easier to apply then giving sorc pets extra power makes their strength go up compared to others. Imps would rule the world
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Terron
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Terron » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:44 pm

pets dont really have the stats to hit people. some ranger pets hit often about it.

i mean the general reason mages dont get used is potions. u hit 2x and guy just drinks a potion and u net like 25-50 damage. mage just doesnt have 40 rounds of life in him to beat the potions and finally kill someone.

this is why i think chanter needs to go defensive support kinda like a magical guard. and we need a new dpser thats a 2 attack blaster.
2 attacks doing 300-450(depending on int ofc) would stop alot of the potion stalemates because it removes alot of the stagnant 2 hit chanter damage rounds.
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this game is like sim ant
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Styx
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Re: What happened to Necros/Sorcs being overpowered?

Postby Styx » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:46 am

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2013

My old suggestion on a magic based slayer , use it abuse it, your call

Basicly break it down into its combat magic style.


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