PK system and XP

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NiteHawk
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PK system and XP

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:56 pm

There are pros and cons of all systems. Right now the reason for no XP loss for all is it is fair, however this doesn't work for immunities as you can simply having someone kill you for an immunity. What ends up happening is that newbies will mostly suffer for it if they are abused, and other people can just mass kill with no risk.

In the end I think it hurts the game PVP wise. One reason is there is very little risk of dying, there is no threat, but because of this, you can't implement a stop mechanic, aka immune or prevent someone from dying through system means automatically without it being abused. Thus lower levels can get smacked in the face (granted it's OK to die, but if it's abusable it's a problem.) and trying to add a prevention to this hurts level 25ers/pvpers more.

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Some discussed/slightly modified options.

1. A notoriety system. However, you can't just toss this on level 25ers as now suddenly PKing becomes not a risk at all. It would generally work that you have a notoriety bar. Let us say it goes from -10 to 0, and you start at 0. If you kill someone, you get -1. If you wait out some time or kill a PKer, you get +1. When you die, you either get a sickness or go into jail/limbo for a set amount of time until your notoriety system goes back to 0, where you are released. Unsure if you could get positive points, I think it could be a thing but you may only gain a small amount and not a full point each time. This is a neat idea HOWEVER you need to pair it with EXP loss, otherwise it would shut down PKing IMO. It also could be said that it either wouldn't work in certain PVP areas like oad bosses/keys/etcs or maybe wouldn't count on 25er vs 25er fights, only lowbie smacking. Maybe city guards would attack you, maybe you could be attacked in cities as well. If you had -10 notoriety you might alert everyone that you are a mass killer and global pings would be sent out of your general area to people so that PKKers can come kill you. How long you should be jailed or sat losses, duration of jail time/etc is something I would wonder about. Maybe even pay to decrease it though it would be costly. Depends how slow it will decrease... But generally the more you kill, the more penalties you'll have, the harder it is to remove!

2. A modified XP loss which could be pair up with 2) or another system. WAIT WAIT. DON'T FREAK OUT JUST YET. The idea that was brought up might work here. XP loss would be a thing, however, you would only be able to lose up to lets say 1% of your total XP, regardless of how many deaths you have. For example, if you have 100mil, then you can only drop to 99mil, regardless of how many times you die. So it would be based on the highest experience you have on the character, and it means that even though you can lose some XP, you won't lose millions of it if you die in a row/etc.

3. Using 3) but everyone can suffer XP loss up to a degree. This means that level 25'ers could lose XP to up to a degree. You would be able to stack some experience (so you can prevent XP loss on a level 25) and if you dipped below it, you would get a temporary stat loss or level loss. Once you get your experience back up, you would automatically recover the level. People said that you should also have to pay, but I find that to be a hassle, I think a auto loss/recover is a better way to go if we were to use this system. Obviously this probably means the notoriety system shouldn't be used and it should just be based off XP loss.

4. Using 3) or the original XP loss as it was with a modified immunity system. I will discuss the immunity system later.

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Immunity System

If a immunity system were in place we could do the following:

1. Same as before, modify how many times you could die. Depending on what people think you could die X per Y hours. You would lose immunity if you attack or heal someone in PVP mode.

2. Instead of a straight up immunity system, don't allow the same group (Person, party, maybe guild?) to kill the same person over for an hour, UNLESS THEY ATTACK YOU FIRST (or you heal someone in PVP mode that they are aggressing.) This means you could still die to others, but a individual/group will leave you alone and knows to leave you alone, at least for an hour. This would be a straight up kill them once, chill for an hour. I think i would only be under level 25ers too, as the original immunity system was.

Let me stress for 1. you need XP loss again, otherwise I feel like here is no point to PK, even less than there is now. 2. might work without any XP changes but that depends if people would like that.

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Another suggestion was that the way who you could PK be adjusted. I don't really know about this as I feel it could be too restrictive, but the idea was that you could only PK someone 3 levels below/higher than you. This means you would probably level alts at certain levels, but it probably also means a super hassle hunting people unless their level was shown. Even still it would be tougher. You could also make PVP start at level 9 really. I see the pros and cons in this, but I think it might end up being a hassle to find fights or having to login a level 16 alt to kill someone. Obviously this would not apply in certain areas like OAD bosses/keys etc.

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Another idea is that regardless if we don\t change it, newbies (true newbies) need a bit more protection. For example, someone who has no level 25ers would be considered a newbie. They may need extra protection (i.E. to level full immunity instead of level 16) or if we add XP loss, maybe they get a reduced or no XP loss until they get their first character to 25.

Invisible pots, another suggestion. Would be similar to fade without any bonuses. Not sure if this is really a good idea as it will make level 25 really abusable and the only way to not have that, is to say that only level 24 and under can use these pots, and can only use them out of combat or in a city. They aren't terrible but I don\t really know how I feel about them.

The last idea, which I am not so keen on but will post here to see how people feel, is a togglepvp button. toggling PVP off means that you would get 25-30-40-50% less experience (number depends, dunno). You could not insta toggle it back. That is all there is to it. You would still be PKable in certain key areas obviously.


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I am interested on peoples take on all of this. I won't make it a poll, but state what you want/like. Can be a mix of things, can be your own new idea. Thanks!

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NiteHawk
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:02 pm

Oh and leaving it as is, is another option, of course. 8)

P.S. Also if you have an idea, go ahead and shoot.

Terron
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby Terron » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:13 pm

i would say xp loss on all characters. if you die you lose exp. for lowbies i would suggest something like 1.5% of their current progress towards the next level. meaning once you gain a level you cannot go below that experience.

for level 25s it should be 1% of total exp lost on deaths, however, i think it should be lessened or removed from specific squares that oad battles are fought. say if u are at ice pillar for dreads keys and die its less harsh then running north to vila traps and dying.

pking warning - after pking the same person 3x withing 1 hour (events and oad squares/keys disabled) you receive a warning. killing the player again within the hour results in -5% total exp on your 25er.

now the fun part, 25ers that are under experience function at a percentage equal to their exp amount. this means if u die 300x without ever using the character to exp with it will end up doing half damage or even less if you are that negligent of your alts.

EDIT: this sytem works well on a few muds ive played and MMO's
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

S0mveraa
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby S0mveraa » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:24 pm

I don't see a problem with it the way it is personally.

If you must do something tho, I'd go for the "karma" system. Don't think there should be a timer attached to it ( by this i mean your karma is cumulative and stays that way till you work it off, not just atimer based system), sure add some exp loss for the person getting killed I guess, but I think most ppl don't PK to make people lose exp, they pk cause...well who knows. I don't know if anyone remembers Revelation's karma system but I think that was a pretty good system. You implement a small respawn timer for everyone as a base, 2-5 seconds. As your total karma goes up you start to have to spend longer and longer in that respawn limbo. Only way to get down karma <dunno if this was how they did it, they're dead now, fuck 'em > is to kill other ppl with negative karma, oading, or just dieing and waiting out your long ass timer and by the simple act of dieing it goes down a little. For people who gain POSITIVE karma by either oading/killing ppl with negative karma/helping noobs out? /givekarma notadouche 1 ..who knows.. Give them titles you can buy for a stupid amount of gold or some such crap. I dunno about that,but giving people a reason to have positive karma might be a way to negate exp loss at all.

Again tho, I don't see the problem with the way it is. Sure it's annoying if you die alot, might even make you not play for a bit,but as the map gets bigger, there will be more places to hide, with obfuscation pots..it's pretty easy to go find a hidey hole and chill. few tips.

get obsfucation pots and set a macro for them, smash macro ever 15 seconds or so till you're where you want to be.
NEVER be below 100 hp lost when leveling.
If you know you are being hunted, ie you died once, save a single stam for awhile, if you're full health or close you can allmost always get out in time .


I'm an ex eve online player, you think this game is rough, you've no idea .

sure there's all kindsa holes in my ideas....i'm just throwing them out there.
Soma/Signal

anthriel
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby anthriel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:29 pm

I think open-world pking system is a good thing and should be preserved. But there are some design dynamics that make victims feel very powerless (hence the calls for ‘harrassment’). For example /track is too powerful (5mins) esp with a world map that has 1 long spine (no alternative routes to places) and obscuration pots lasting only an ineffectively short time. Another reason is there is no risk for pker (ie you are 100% unable to do anything retaliatory to them for their efforts in stopping your leveling enjoyment etc).

Hence I propose:
1. Fixes to /track & obscuration pots (timing) and world map (more alternative routes to places introduced). This allows greater scope for victims to avoid pkers.
2. Bounty system where any lvl 25 char that wants to be able to attack non-25 char must buy and equip a “pk license” item (expensive purchase and resale value) to be able to do so (this item drops 100% on pkers death). Therefore if the victim pulls off an upset win they can cash in the dropped license for a gold reward. This provides non toxic retaliation mechanism for victims.

Both these help reduce the feeling of powerlessness which causes pk victims to quit because they feel like they are just playing in order to be someone else’s pk fodder.

I prefer the above bounty system to XP loss systems cos it is very simple and introduces risk but not in a toxic way. Most XP loss systems would either be fostering more toxicity (allowing ppl to engage in tit-for-tat bastardisation on their enemies, feeding into guild factionalism etc etc) or be still unfairly skewed towards pkers to be effective (eg exp loss for 25ers is good but complicated to do... and if you add a buffer then it might effectively negate effectiveness if the 25er runs keys/oads etc and can accumulate huge xp buffers from that). Peace

Terron
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby Terron » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:34 pm

needs to be risk involved tho. most of these people die because they chain run back to the same monster and refuse to even try anything else because they want to train on the top 3 monsters ingame. there isnt a game anywhere that allows that.

pk license is top notch idea

track needs to cost 1 stam on use
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

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Ardrahz
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby Ardrahz » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:36 pm

Obviously, i choose the global exp loss option. Which includes 25ers lose exp as well. True noovs should suffer no exp loss on death. But need to taste defeat. It is part of this game. Yes some people PK indiscriminately, but alot of the community are quite helpful when it comes to new players. Including leveling tips, free equipment, or even leading them to guilds for invites. But adding a little risk to the 25ers being rewarded will be a great thing moving forward.

Edit after reading Andys post: i like the pk license idea as well.
HomeGrown

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Aduka
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby Aduka » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:00 pm

I really believe experience loss needs to be re-added to the game. There should be a risk associated with leveling outside of town. I don’t believe this should be a great loss though. As I have said numerous times before, I think this should be somewhere between 1-2% of their experience that has a hard cap of 2 million. This isn’t a lot of experience to re-gain, and with that there should be an immunity to further experience loss until the experience has been re-gained. For Example, PK-A kills Leveler-B and they lose 1 million experience. Leveler-B would still be able to die but would not lose anymore experience until that lost experience had been regained. This would add a real risk vs reward feeling for wild leveling over area.

I also think there really needs to be some sort of infamy system in place as well. When players kill another player, they should gain infamy and slowly fall out of favor with the gods. I don’t know at this time how long that should take, or what the timeframes should be for lowering your infamy. I would honestly like to see this tie into a time for the PK in question. It should also increase exponentially for killing the same person over and over. The more you kill the same person, the faster your infamy rises. This would discourage grief kills and harassment. The amount of infamy you have can result in things like death timers which keep you “dead” until the timer expires. Nothing too crazy, maybe have it equal the amount of time a player would spend on average to regain lost experience (ie: 2-3 minutes). The farther a player goes into infamy, the more “ill” effects begin to take place. Potions and Heals no longer seem to be as effective. Temples will no longer heal you. City guards will attack you when you pass through a city.

This should also have some type of indicator when you look the player over. For example, “Zombeh appears to be shinning with a radiant glow.” could be for someone who hasn’t killed anyone while “Zombeh appears to be filled with dark intent.” could be for someone who has some infamy. I would say this could go as far as someone who has max infamy having a look-over line like, “Zombeh is a WANTED criminal.” This would add depth to reason to player kill and not just be about impacting some time while getting your jollies off.

In the end, I feel this would be a win-win scenario in what right now feels like a never-ending verbal argument. On one hand, player killers get to inflict some type of damage to the player they are attempting to kill other than interrupting their time. On the other hand, victims get to know that the person who killed them just gained some infamy and they are safe from exp loss until they finish. To add a bonus to this, you could even allow the victim to place a small “bounty” on the players head which could be announced server wide or able to be viewed through a bounty menu in the tavern. That is really all I have to say about the subject.

~Zombeh

Terron
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Re: PK system and XP

Postby Terron » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:43 pm

i dunno how infamy would work as a divinity thing. the gods would only be mad at you for pking your own div or ones neutral to you. its already weird enough gods bless the weapons of their enemies.

as much as systems are cool to add, this game is an RPG. this means fame/infamy and all that is earned and dished out every single day through player interaction. you want to be the coolest most famous celeb in Ciruin? help all the noobs, help people in all guilds, dont pk, give them items, teach people how to oad etc. if you want to be infamous? pk, steal, train characters that humiliate other peoples characters etc.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

anthriel
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Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: PK system and XP

Postby anthriel » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:13 am

@aduka/zombeh
There is already a difference between leveling in an arena and leveling in the wild: ie the arena is like 30% slower. Most ppl who play are time poor. Exp loss means that if a pker is repeatedly killing you, not only do you lose time not being able to level but you also can lose more xp than you gain (eg even when there was a 3 deaths before immunity type system). That’s the point at which most time-poor casual gamers decide to play something else rather than EO and this game then suffers. The reward for leveling outside town is faster exp. Risk is you could also get held up by pkers and lose gold/pots etc. Adding more risk to the pk victim than this is likely to frustrate time poor players and lose ppl to toxicity (“you annoyed me so now I’m gonna repeatedly hunt u and get my superguild to KOS you etc etc”).

There does need to be some risk on the pker side though, and for this I do like the idea of your infamy system (although many of the consequences you suggested could be more complicated to implement). I suggest therefore adding an ‘infamy’ element to my previous ‘PK license’ suggestion... ie A pker gains infamy while holding a license and that affects how much he needs to pay when buying his next license. Eg if base license costs say 10k, a person with low infamy may only need to pay 10-12k to buy a replacement if they die... but someone with lots of infamy may need to pay 30k to replace it etc (and the new license would also be worth 30k to the person who PKKs the infamous pker). Hence a true bounty system would now be in place - but one that is simple and not dependent on game-generated gold (which is easily a abusable). Peace


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