Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

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NiteHawk
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby NiteHawk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:26 am

daedroth wrote:Imagine this.
You use all your stamina (damage multiplied appropriately) on a back stab attempt (basically if you hit you will likely kill something, this will likely lead to rage (to lessen one shotted rage could make it 1/2 to full multiplication damage, so two stamina is x2 to x4 damage, 3 stamina is x3 to x6 damage, 4 stamina is x4 to x8 or 1/2+1 so x3 to x4, x4 to x6, x5 to x8 or some such), but if you miss you will be vulnerable).
You cannot hide again until your combat timer clears (so anything that resets your combat timer means no hiding, which means no backstabing, run away and try again?) maybe + some time.
Something like the above has been discussed before and its been nae.
Normal attacks have a chance of critical hit (an assassin knows where to hit for best effect).


The issue really isn't about 1vs1. The problem with slayers is literally their burst damage, not really the overall damage. x8'ing it will just make it even worse. Two slayers can literally down everyone with no reaction times. Hell I think at x8 HO's can one shot div'd people at like 1400.

Again, the reason for the delay, this one or the previous one, is to separate attacks. The problem with slayers is the burst damage. Their main damage IS high, but to me it's not the 'overall issue'. Previously, the issue came from being able to queue and attack two attacks at once with movement. So because you can 'queue' (aka you submit data to the server faster then the server will react due to throttling) you get off two backstabs resulting in deaths before you can react. With two or three slayers its still a problem but less due to the timer increasing the more players are there.

By x6-8'ing stuff not only do they have a far easier time to kill people with just one character (I.E. all you need to do is hit him once or twice with a regular character attack, then the slayer gets off a x8 attack) It will just lead to insta kills and super rage. On top of that you increase their attack times too if their attack stamina is all at once, aka they will be faster then someone who has to use 4 attacks by half a second or so.

Even if it's not x8, you'd have to give them some higher attacks then they have now by a good degree. I don't see that happening unless it's a tiny boost from what it is now and then I think it just ruins them further and makes it impossible to balance when you can just use two lings with high agi. Sure they might have only 800 damage, but their hit rate is 50% or little more and two BS will finish the job. (AKA two slayers who hit for 800 each and high agi is the same as two slayers who hit for 1050 and have very low agi because you only need two hits regardless, so you might as well go with HIGH AGI and get the higher chance. Same results, better hitrate chance.) It will probably also ruin high STR too for that reason.

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Anyways first off, I think we can do without the bonus spell damage against them (or thieves). Not really needed IMO. The have a heavier focus on INT now, which I think is a OK thing, so they already have lower WIS because of that. And if they want to sacrifice INT for WIS, that is their thing, and I think it's a legit one.

---

So now looking at what to do, again. There are a few options:

1. Move the hide timer after attacking instead of in between again. We can play with the settings on how long you're visible depending on how many people are around, though it will probably be less. We won't be adding the move to reset though. I think it needs to go anyways but people might just do this anyways to remove any chances of being attacked. Honestly, I think if slayers move away after attacking it will be even harder to kill, but easier if they stay. It's kind of a ying yang and I don't really know if this is a good idea to do.

2. Do something like Daedroth talked about. It's been brought up before but I think it just makes a problem with burst damage. You'd /hide and whatever stam you would have left would be your 'attack' damage. I don't think you can just simply 'double damage'. Instead it might be 20%-25% more damage (MAYBE) but only one backstab. Hiding until the next round will give you a benefit of 4 stam to use which can be a good hit. I think you would still need some hide or after attack delay. They would probably become very hit and run and it might be hard to combat. It means they would be played a lot differently, but the risk is again, stupid burst damage, harder to level, etc. I'm just bringing this up as it was brought up in Discord too though.

3. Change the way backstab works on them. Give them the ability to coat their daggers in poison OR just make it bleed damage. For example, CURRENTLY you might be dealing 650 damage with 4.5x modifier (around 4.5 anyways), The poison/bleed system would mean maybe you deal only 3x modifier (3.5x maybe, etc), so you'd only deal 433 damage, BUT THEN you'd poison/bleed them them for a total of 216 poison damage. So the result is still 650 damage within a fast time, but not all at once. I think it could be second based rather then tick based. For example:

I hit for 433 damage. For 4 seconds you'll take the total sum of 216 poison/bleed damage. (Each second your HP will drop by 54.

This would STACK so you wouldn't have to worry about losing damage if you hit two in a row. I would remove the hide delay timer, and keep it only for being /searched out. So you could either /hide attack /hide attack with no delays. (Or you can attempt to do the sneaky double hide thing.) We could possibly show the damage per second or when it's done if the slayers might feel better to see the 'extra damage' they cause. You'll be able to attack without delays as instead of adding the delay to the slayer hide, you now add a delay to some of the damage. You wouldn't need to boost damage as now you aren't losing the time due to waiting either per round, which is it's own benefit.

4. Keep it the same, maybe give them armor piercing. Meaning having armor will be less effective when fighting them, PASSIVELY only. ACTIVE will still be the same. It doesn't mean they'll do more damage to a low AC user as much, but your damage wouldn't be so negated by high armor passively. Right now armor passively negates about 10-12%, this could be halved/25%/not at all passively for slayers.

5. Leave it the way it is but maybe make some adjustments to delay timer so it doesn't increase so fast as people come in so they can still somewhat be used in group fights. etc. Right now it 'does' work though some tweaks can be done to make them a little better at surviving.

6. Adding a fail change to hide instead of a hide delay timer. I think though the chance would have to be pretty high in order to prevent or slow down their burst damage. Maybe gets higher the more players are there. I wouldn't know the exact amounts, maybe someone can suggest it but my issue comes from unless it's really high fail rates then burst damage is still a huge thing, and I don't know how happy people would be if they failed hides.

7. Something something repurpose them and someone can post more ideas.

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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:04 pm

i think hands down slayers and brigs are the best class to play, despite the penalties. by best i mean purely pve and roaming the globe killing monsters. personally the drawbacks are decent for pve play. pretty much the only class i even play day to day.

however when group mechanics are brought into play the magic penalty on slayers probably would have been fine IF necros didnt get an additional superboost on top of it. truth of it all is people just dont want to die instantly. in group it happens sometimes but if you are running around with 10 wis and the opponents jump you with 2 mages you are toasted pretty much instantly. the class was primarily focused on strength and theres 100s of saurian/half orc slayers ingame and people obviously refuse to be smashed for 200-300 80% of the time. this was a big deciding factor to why people just stopped using them. update hit people logged on their slayers went to battle and dropped instantly, now they dont use them. they are for sale everywhere. i really think accounts should have got atleast 1 racechange for slayers and brigs just so people could test the new system adequately.

generally speaking most people play whatever is hardest to kill at the time. slayers are glass cannon types now in pvp and honestly arent a very good choice without the biggest faction, or large quantities of slayers trying to maximize hide.

id like to state that if you have around +4 int on your target (non mage/stalker for obvious reasons) you are pretty much immune to them and can attempt to kill them with almost no way to die or be hurt generally. horcs and saurian assassins are still great for hunting cavaliers ninjas and other low int dpsers. they will probably run at the mere sight of you, the first round you double hide.

personally i think the classes are fine if the magical drawback was removed.
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Lateralus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 pm

daedroth wrote:Imagine this.
You use all your stamina (damage multiplied appropriately) on a back stab attempt (basically if you hit you will likely kill something, this will likely lead to rage (to lessen one shotted rage could make it 1/2 to full multiplication damage, so two stamina is x2 to x4 damage, 3 stamina is x3 to x6 damage, 4 stamina is x4 to x8 or 1/2+1 so x3 to x4, x4 to x6, x5 to x8 or some such), but if you miss you will be vulnerable).
You cannot hide again until your combat timer clears (so anything that resets your combat timer means no hiding, which means no backstabing, run away and try again?) maybe + some time.
Something like the above has been discussed before and its been nae.
Normal attacks have a chance of critical hit (an assassin knows where to hit for best effect).


I actually suggested something very similar today without reading your post.

I agree it would make them more interesting to play lower their overall damage and make it so they could be countered easier with tactics.


Ideally it would work like this:

Each Stam used out of hide would be 1-1.5x damage all used at once.

So if a slayer hid on his first Stam and attacked using the remaining Stam damage might be around 600 on 4 total Stan used. This is just slightly higher than the current 500 or so shots that a slayer gets with 2 stam which they can do twice in a round. However is where it gets interesting is if you hide for a full round and use 4 stam bring that bust up to 800 damage. (Keep in mind you just used 8 stam on that attack 2 full rounds). Another thing you would have to worry about is getting searched out. While sitting there for a full round hidden. Keep in mind too if you are doing this max damage you are on an orc or lizard so you are working with very little int.

If we put this in I think overall it would make slayer users happy while reducing their overall damage and make the game as a whole more tactical. Also we could get rid of that hide delay.


Other notes we could make it so if you are searched out it resets your exhaust timer too just like if you were to be caught stealing (even more risk for the full round).

When your hit or miss this assassinate full stam move as a slayer you are out of stam and vunrable for your 5 second or whatever exhaust so keep that in mind too there is no rehiding after this attack.

As for thieves we could prob just leave them with 2 ambushes or whatever. Save this Assassinate type skill for assassins only.

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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:22 pm

i have to disagree. hit rates arent high enough for a 1 attack system and leaving the least defensive class wide open would make noone use them. they already die in seconds and thats why noone uses them currently. its not the backstab mechanics chasing people away from slayers. its the 66 armor, no shield, insta death by magic, and the fact that half the classes ingame have a hard-counter to slayer.

i also have a hard time picturing you even test hide when you suggest changes. log on the build server use my characters if u want. you cant stay hidden. arcane watchers spot you within 3 seconds hit you for 180 damage (100% so fk all that wisdom) and youd be sitting there for 6 seconds so you can just die. and you think this is what slayer users want? what good is hide if a large group can just log a chanter or stalker with a decent pet and render a hider worthless.

theres no way making the class worse is going to promote using them lol.
1 attack systems only work if the hit rate is high, there is no searching, and theres a chance of 1 shotting.

i really think the guild issues are more or less the staple reason noone is really playing atm.
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Styx » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:00 pm

All these timers are going to eventually eat up the server :twisted:

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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:24 pm

maybe we need a simpler system in general. backstab could have a 6.1 second cooldown so you can only perform it once per round and just let them use the other stam however they want.

increase backstab multipliers and let them use it 1x per round. if they want to run, hide, or attack with the rest thats entirely up to them.

honestly it makes the most sense and is relatively easy system.
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Hanibal » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 pm

Why do the races have the stats they have? Its to balance the game, or so i thought.

If you want a hard hitting slayer you will play something with high str but have to sacrifice MR like a Saurain or a Horc, if you want MR you would create a slayer that has lower str but higher wis like a gob or drow. A drow and gob slayer are not going to hit for 600+ dmg per stab ever being able to round anyone unless its a lowbie with low hps already.

The balance is in the stats is what im saying not by adding penalties and timers, remove the hide and stab delay, make them so they have to move to rehide, the only issue moving to rehide was when lvling in parties and missing a kill, oh well, and remove the MR penalty.

Give them back their med armor for fighting melee and if you want to fix dmg make it so they cant duel equip daggers getting whatever bonus it is they get off that, i play a slayer and see no real advantage to using two daggers or well higher dmg, my drows lucky if he gets a stab in for over 500 dmg as he shouldnt with 20 str.
------------------------------------------------------------
Krange - Ninja
Hanibal - Slayer
Hannibal - Zerker
Krang - Ninja
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby anthriel » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm

NiteHawk wrote:
6. Adding a fail change to hide instead of a hide delay timer. I think though the chance would have to be pretty high in order to prevent or slow down their burst damage. Maybe gets higher the more players are there. I wouldn't know the exact amounts, maybe someone can suggest it but my issue comes from unless it's really high fail rates then burst damage is still a huge thing, and I don't know how happy people would be if they failed hides.


Currently a slayer has approx 40% chance of landing a stab (assuming target has same agi) whether in groupfight or solo... so landing the required 2 successive backstab in 1 round (to effectively instakill most) means 40% * 40% = 16%.... this % is generally fine for solo (in fact could even be higher) but in groupfights its insane cos say you 5slayers coordinating backstabs in a party, you have 5x the chances to kill b4 ppl can react.... (if my math is correct) that is 16%x5 = 80% chance to kill the opponent before any delay occurs... then 0.5sec later another 80% chance to finish him off before the first round is even over.

Therefore I think my original formula to combat groupfight hax was something like this:

%success of /hide = 100% - [20% - (player INT x 1%)] - 1% for each person in room - 10% if protected by paladin


Under this eg. a 10int horc slayer hiding in room with 16ppl (eg 8v8 battle) and sitting behind paladin would have a %success on /hide of: 100%-(20%-10%)-16%-10% = 64% ... therefore to successfully land one backstab it would be 64% * 40% = 25.6%... successfully landing 2 backstabs is then 25.6% * 25.6% = 6.5% .... so his party of 5 slayers now effectively has 6.5% *5 = 32.5% chance to instakill someone (and another 32.5% chance 0.5 sec later) rather than their previous 80% chance (with another 80% 0.5sec later). Obviously this % would increase with higher int slayers (though trading off some damage then) and less players in room (ie smaller groupfight or solo battle scenarios).

Note that the above example's 32.5% chance that 5 slayers have to instaskill someone is still better than the 16% a solo slayer has to 1round someone... its just not as ridiculous as 80%.... Anyway the %s in the formula can be tweaked to whatever NH thinks is best but the general premise is keep slayers decent in 1v1 combat but penalise their damage potential in groupfight situations. It works in theory but obviously (as NH pointed out) ppl will still not be happy to accept failing hides as it is still a nerf (which is why i suggested giving them an offsetting perk like the dodge agility bonus that JF suggested to improve survivability in melee) to offset.

In anycase most changes will cause ppl to be upset but if we are gonna change something lets at least try for something that preserves what ppl love about the class (burst damage, 1v1 slaying potential) but doesnt screw the game mechanics (ie groupfights).

PS - happy for some1 to point out if my math is wrong... its been ages since i did probability math lol
PPS - adding this %fail to /hide mechanic also makes INT count in rogue events like the upcoming thief TGC where having high INT largely does nothing when rogues are forced into straight combat

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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby Terron » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:38 pm

who would use a brigand/slayer if they failed hide? lol personally id go play something else. its annoying enough trying to hide as is and even worse on lowbies grinding exp. monsters appear to be getting crazy amounts of int(or infra) as of late.

as far as the dbl backstabs it may be 16% to land twice on even agility but then when you factor hps, armor blocks negation, shield blocks. it gets lower drastically. instakills is generally a horc thing, saurians can just not against high hp.

not saying they are op atm. but in generality they have a nasty nasty flaw, combo'd with a dependency on a non combat essential stat where the most they can do is sacrifice wisdom sending their fatal flaw into insanity range. necros got a boost, rangers and chanters got boosts vs hiders, druids still have faeriefire, clerics paladins and minstrels have plenty enough time to get heals and/or pots off between stabs. then add in that slayers lost damage mostly buffed damage didnt lose much unbuffed. slayers lost armor, slayers lost stats having to focus on wis and int to last. i think the design and trade-off on slayers and brigs is actually pretty balanced. aside from magic damage i dont see anything wrong with the class as is. however other classes need penalties and trade off adjustments to bring them in line a bit more.

healers are just running away with the game atm. theres no slayers to kill them. the numbers game is even more out of hand when noone can beat a guard/priest and definitely cant when they have magic support lol.
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Re: Slayer/Brig Hide Revamp - Initial feedback and suggestions

Postby daedroth » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:22 am

Terron wrote:who would use a brigand/slayer if they failed hide? lol personally id go play something else. its annoying enough trying to hide as is and even worse on lowbies grinding exp. monsters appear to be getting crazy amounts of int(or infra) as of late.

Not only that, they are lightning fast to react at times when you are autosneaking. When you land on a square with 2 or three monsters you get spotted (as soon as you land on that square) and mashed pretty bad before you can move again. Autosneak should be a little like hide in that respect: the monster should need to find you before attacking. Autosneak and rob something, you are likely attacked right away as well... just seems flawed to me.

Terron wrote:not saying they are op atm. but in generality they have a nasty nasty flaw, combo'd with a dependency on a non combat essential stat where the most they can do is sacrifice wisdom sending their fatal flaw into insanity range.

Yep, i'm biased off course, but it is kinda why i suggested hide be int+agl /2.

Nitehawk wrote:Even if it's not x8, you'd have to give them some higher attacks then they have now by a good degree. I don't see that happening unless it's a tiny boost from what it is now and then I think it just ruins them further and makes it impossible to balance when you can just use two lings with high agi. Sure they might have only 800 damage, but their hit rate is 50% or little more and two BS will finish the job. (AKA two slayers who hit for 800 each and high agi is the same as two slayers who hit for 1050 and have very low agi because you only need two hits regardless, so you might as well go with HIGH AGI and get the higher chance. Same results, better hitrate chance.) It will probably also ruin high STR too for that reason.

But they won't always hit for full damage and you do not need to make it a flat x8 damage, you could add more variation as I said (1/2 to full etc) so they have to roll the maximum damage, then the maximum damage multiplier. I sill think slayers should have a good chance of rounding and I don't use them and hate fighting them so it is not like I am saying this so that I can pwn shit on my slayer (I don't have one now).
My suggestion to make it so that they need to have a clear combat timer would mean that they would need to retreat before trying again, in a group fight this would mean that their team would be effectively one down until the returned, and then hope that they hit and do enough damage to help round someone on the first attempt and on return attempts.
So they'd make for a great alpha strike, but after that to backstab again they would need to disappear from combat for a while. You could even keep and add to the delay to attack from hidden (this would be a simulated "getting into position" time) so they would not only have to wait for the combat timer to refresh, but they would have to stay hidden for a little bit longer before making the attempt. Meanwhile teammate are fighting for survival!
However if they choose to stay in the combat I don't like the idea of them now being crap fighters armed with dagger, which is why I suggested critical strike chance for their normal attacks.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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