For now I've added another spell, called 'Int', or 5 works too.
Grants the party INT boost, from 2-3 with the oad instrument. Should be useful for casters as it increases damage output and healing. Should be pretty nice.
Bard/Minstrel Balancing
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
From my testing so far it seems that they are just buff bots. Its important to make sure they are viable solo(pvp/pve) and not just in parties. Clerics also(which is made up for with shields and heavy defense I assume?) They do good damage but Ive noticed there is no offense song, just buffs. Could debuffs or damage songs be a thing? The cost to maintain songs seems pretty steep as is right now especially with such a small mana pool. I think that they are interesting...but not sure how good they are yet due to my lack of experience in a few things like PVP. For being a VERY stat intensive class(MAD - Multiple attribute dependancy), shouldn't they get a boost in other areas? It is my assumption that everything should potentially be able to beat everything else right? I think I was hoping for a mixed damage class rather than a melee who uses strength to attack people while putting up buffs that drain mana rapidly and can only be used once at a time.
Additionally, how powerful IS charisma? Can it just be sat at 16 and everything be fine or no? That'd ease up the burden and open up build paths to new races like Dwarf or Dark Elf. I don't understand how their power is calculated. Is it based off of Intelligence? Charisma only? Charisma and Level? Instrument? Instrument and Charisma(and also level?) From what I read you want Bards "Int" or main stat to be Charisma.
Is it effective to go combat stats, with minimum charisma and okay wisdom(to get as much mana as possible since its drains extremely rapidly) and just play short burst windows of combat for damage? Or is bard designed to be like a healbot type, who sits there and has terrible combat stats but buffs the group for a few strength, or some armor, or MR, or very low health regen, BUT only one. If it is the later than I can see people just buffing int and wisdom and Charisma and dropping strength, sitting them behind a guard, but even then it'd probably be better to sit a cleric behind a Guard or any other squishy/REAL healer.
What is the role the bard is supposed to fill? Is it a physical attacking supporter with his choice of a single buff for himself or the team, simply a buff bot and heal bot(pure support, no dmg especially since they have no damage songs), or what? If it is the former then wouldnt it be better to just bring a druid for haste and heals and way better dmg? Or even a paladin for protection and heals and better dmg? Or..really anything else?
I am playing a Bard right now and enjoying it, but I have a lot of concerns and worries for the future. Especially given the little knowledge there is about them and being unsure of what to look for when testing makes it a lot harder.
TLDR: What IS a bard supposed to be and do? Condensing stats to allow better build paths/class role clarity. Should bards even use regular weapons or should they have their own type? I know I've said something before along the lines of a Mage Blade, but what if the songs actually enhanced your attacks or actions? Rather than just giving flat stat bonuses across the board for all songs.
Thanks in advance, I know it's a wall o' text!
Additionally, how powerful IS charisma? Can it just be sat at 16 and everything be fine or no? That'd ease up the burden and open up build paths to new races like Dwarf or Dark Elf. I don't understand how their power is calculated. Is it based off of Intelligence? Charisma only? Charisma and Level? Instrument? Instrument and Charisma(and also level?) From what I read you want Bards "Int" or main stat to be Charisma.
Is it effective to go combat stats, with minimum charisma and okay wisdom(to get as much mana as possible since its drains extremely rapidly) and just play short burst windows of combat for damage? Or is bard designed to be like a healbot type, who sits there and has terrible combat stats but buffs the group for a few strength, or some armor, or MR, or very low health regen, BUT only one. If it is the later than I can see people just buffing int and wisdom and Charisma and dropping strength, sitting them behind a guard, but even then it'd probably be better to sit a cleric behind a Guard or any other squishy/REAL healer.
What is the role the bard is supposed to fill? Is it a physical attacking supporter with his choice of a single buff for himself or the team, simply a buff bot and heal bot(pure support, no dmg especially since they have no damage songs), or what? If it is the former then wouldnt it be better to just bring a druid for haste and heals and way better dmg? Or even a paladin for protection and heals and better dmg? Or..really anything else?
I am playing a Bard right now and enjoying it, but I have a lot of concerns and worries for the future. Especially given the little knowledge there is about them and being unsure of what to look for when testing makes it a lot harder.
TLDR: What IS a bard supposed to be and do? Condensing stats to allow better build paths/class role clarity. Should bards even use regular weapons or should they have their own type? I know I've said something before along the lines of a Mage Blade, but what if the songs actually enhanced your attacks or actions? Rather than just giving flat stat bonuses across the board for all songs.
Thanks in advance, I know it's a wall o' text!
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
[quote="Honzo"]From my testing so far it seems that they are just buff bots. Its important to make sure they are viable solo(pvp/pve) and not just in parties. Clerics also(which is made up for with shields and heavy defense I assume?) They do good damage but Ive noticed there is no offense song, just buffs. Could debuffs or damage songs be a thing? The cost to maintain songs seems pretty steep as is right now especially with such a small mana pool. I think that they are interesting...but not sure how good they are yet due to my lack of experience in a few things like PVP. For being a VERY stat intensive class(MAD - Multiple attribute dependancy), shouldn't they get a boost in other areas? It is my assumption that everything should potentially be able to beat everything else right? I think I was hoping for a mixed damage class rather than a melee who uses strength to attack people while putting up buffs that drain mana rapidly and can only be used once at a time.
Debuffs could be a thing in the future. To me they aren't a bad class though overall. With the power (strength buff) they do some good physical damage for the class. With their song that reduces spell damage plus the shell spell, they are better at taking on spell casters then most. Both reduce spell damage on themselves, though it could be boosted most.
Charisma is the main key on this. You need high charisma. Going 16 charisma is like going 16 wisdom on a druid, or 16 int on a sorc. It's 'their' important stat. A proper instrument also makes the buffs alot more powerful. We don't have OAD class instruments in yet but they will be in the near future. They get better bonuses using them and it's hard to give a 100% test without them, much like an assassin without a OAD class dagger . In terms of int, they don't need it at all. All of their spells are based on charisma as well. There are some classes that have nice charisma and strength for a good mix.
Their role is mainly for parties, but they can use a buff on themselves as well. It really depends on how you want to play it though. It can be used as a passive healing. Their AC bonus stacks with anything, so it will stack with SS, etc etc. No other class can passive heal all at once though, or switch rapidly through AC, Healing all, spell resistance for all, etc. Again, you might not see it until you have proper level 25/oad instrument/etc for how passive HP healing can do to a whole party, or boosting everyones damage. If I however limit parties as we might do, I can also balance them further and make the songs more impacting too. Class type weapons (I.E> mage blades) can come in the future though. I could see that, but they aren't going to get their own weapons from level 1-25 just 'because'. They will get more 'songs' in the future though.
They won't really get damaging spells that effect everyone in the room. In fact, no class will have spells that do that. I don't like the idea of area effect spells that damage in a game like this. I do understand they are lacking on the cool side of the damage department. I don't think their damage is bad, but its generic.
It's hard to say their exact role until people use them more and we have proper gear for them. I think the spell bonuses are being underestimated here, and I think they generally will benefit parties or self depending on what you feel you need at the time. I may have to increase the instruments themselves so they start off at a higher level so they seem more impacting at lower levels and not completely weak anyways too.
Debuffs could be a thing in the future. To me they aren't a bad class though overall. With the power (strength buff) they do some good physical damage for the class. With their song that reduces spell damage plus the shell spell, they are better at taking on spell casters then most. Both reduce spell damage on themselves, though it could be boosted most.
Charisma is the main key on this. You need high charisma. Going 16 charisma is like going 16 wisdom on a druid, or 16 int on a sorc. It's 'their' important stat. A proper instrument also makes the buffs alot more powerful. We don't have OAD class instruments in yet but they will be in the near future. They get better bonuses using them and it's hard to give a 100% test without them, much like an assassin without a OAD class dagger . In terms of int, they don't need it at all. All of their spells are based on charisma as well. There are some classes that have nice charisma and strength for a good mix.
Their role is mainly for parties, but they can use a buff on themselves as well. It really depends on how you want to play it though. It can be used as a passive healing. Their AC bonus stacks with anything, so it will stack with SS, etc etc. No other class can passive heal all at once though, or switch rapidly through AC, Healing all, spell resistance for all, etc. Again, you might not see it until you have proper level 25/oad instrument/etc for how passive HP healing can do to a whole party, or boosting everyones damage. If I however limit parties as we might do, I can also balance them further and make the songs more impacting too. Class type weapons (I.E> mage blades) can come in the future though. I could see that, but they aren't going to get their own weapons from level 1-25 just 'because'. They will get more 'songs' in the future though.
They won't really get damaging spells that effect everyone in the room. In fact, no class will have spells that do that. I don't like the idea of area effect spells that damage in a game like this. I do understand they are lacking on the cool side of the damage department. I don't think their damage is bad, but its generic.
It's hard to say their exact role until people use them more and we have proper gear for them. I think the spell bonuses are being underestimated here, and I think they generally will benefit parties or self depending on what you feel you need at the time. I may have to increase the instruments themselves so they start off at a higher level so they seem more impacting at lower levels and not completely weak anyways too.
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
Thank you so much for your reply. This is literally everything I wanted to know and more. Thank you for keeping me in touch with whats coming down the pipeline and your class ideology for Bard. 
I will definitely be leveling my bard up more so I can test for you!
You and your team have done so much work. I am honored and happy to play your game! Thank you for the opportunity. I've been passing the site around to a few friends, so I hope I can snag more up!
The reason I asked about Int is because I read that 10 int, 16 int, and 20 int were different break points for the BARD cure. What kind of weapons should a bard be using? Always a sword since it has the highest base dmg? I think I may have read on here that weapons based on type are modified differently for dmg due to class usability(lower dmg on blunts because druid morph forms/cleric being support etc). Is this a thing?
I will definitely be leveling my bard up more so I can test for you!You and your team have done so much work. I am honored and happy to play your game! Thank you for the opportunity. I've been passing the site around to a few friends, so I hope I can snag more up!
The reason I asked about Int is because I read that 10 int, 16 int, and 20 int were different break points for the BARD cure. What kind of weapons should a bard be using? Always a sword since it has the highest base dmg? I think I may have read on here that weapons based on type are modified differently for dmg due to class usability(lower dmg on blunts because druid morph forms/cleric being support etc). Is this a thing?
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
Honzo wrote:Thank you so much for your reply. This is literally everything I wanted to know and more. Thank you for keeping me in touch with whats coming down the pipeline and your class ideology for Bard.
You and your team have done so much work. I am honored and happy to play your game! Thank you for the opportunity. I've been passing the site around to a few friends, so I hope I can snag more up!
The reason I asked about Int is because I read that 10 int, 16 int, and 20 int were different break points for the BARD cure. What kind of weapons should a bard be using? Always a sword since it has the highest base dmg? I think I may have read on here that weapons based on type are modified differently for dmg due to class usability(lower dmg on blunts because druid morph forms/cleric being support etc). Is this a thing?
Every char point makes a difference now. Char makes a difference per char point for extra MP or HP too (they alternate). There is a post about this though for sure.
Sword is the highest base damage, correct. But each class has its own damage multiplier. For example:
Let's say both are level 25 with 22 str
A ranger might deal 240 damage on div with a sword, but only 120 damage with a staff.
A monk might deal 230 damage on div with a staff.
This is because the damage multiplier is higher. If monks were ABLE to use swords, they probably would be dealing 400 damage. Obviously this is not the case but the multiplier per point is higher with a staff on a monk, because staves themselves have a weaker min/max.
Druids are different though. They don't necessarily have a higher multiplier. In fact, it is probably lower. The reason why they have more damage however is that you are typically adding an average of 36-42 str rather then 18-22 str. Pretty much double in morph. This makes alot of races a viable option though too in the end. The max STR might be adjusted in the future, but for now it's okay where it is.
I cant give out the full values formula here, but it's generally STR*LVL*CLASSMODIFIER*RANDOM(WEAPONDAMAGE MIN to WEAPONDAMAGE MAX) as a basis.
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
NiteHawk wrote:However, with /song power they can gain between 3-5 strength which gives them a nice damage boost, and is applicable to the whole party. I.E. it's about 147-197 damage regular with 20 strength, and 184-247 with the power song if you get 5 strength. Typical will probably be 4 strength. About on pair with a paladin. Damage is okay here.
Does this mean that 20 charisma is 4 strength buff at lvl 25?
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
Honzo wrote:NiteHawk wrote:However, with /song power they can gain between 3-5 strength which gives them a nice damage boost, and is applicable to the whole party. I.E. it's about 147-197 damage regular with 20 strength, and 184-247 with the power song if you get 5 strength. Typical will probably be 4 strength. About on pair with a paladin. Damage is okay here.
Does this mean that 20 charisma is 4 strength buff at lvl 25?
You need the OAD instrument too. Working on that. It's typically +4 with 20 yeah,
Re: Bard/Minstrel Balancing
I would like to see a spell that has a chance to turn monsters (including pets) agianst each other. Not sure if it would be the bard's job but if you are looking for something to add to them...
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