Extra Purse

[Lavelia]

So. You head out of town to level and earn some gold. Kill a monster only to find that all the gold is Gone. For a player that's just out farming exp it's not such a big deal but if you're a lower player that needs the gold in order to level and get items/decking done you're gonna run into issues. Yes, there are quests that address this issue to some degree, but lets be entirely honest. It's annoying to have thieves (no offense intended to you thievie bastards) running through the entire map and robbing every mob they come across blind. It's what they're designed to do but it's problematic in the fact that then, when the rest of us go to farm monsters to earn gold we first have to kill those already robbed spawns in order to just get them to respawn with gold on them.

My idea. Have two purses on each mob. One that has a set amount that thieves can steal from (could somehow be tied to the room instead of the monster itself - dependent upon if it's even possible to code something like that) and the other the purse that it drops upon death from being killed. That way the thieves can run through and steal or, if the mob has already been stolen from, encourages people to actually kill those mobs after robbing them blind. Now to keep things balanced it might mean that the drop gold and steal gold may end up being reduced to some degree but, in all honesty, it's annoying as hell to end up having to kill stuff just to get monsters to spawn with gold back on them.

I realize that quests are going to offset the gold problem but it's still going to crop up. New players that come into the game probably aren't going to want to sit in an arena, where the gold dropped isn't comparable to being out in the field, for long and to be honest, you don't want new players sitting in an arena anyways since they won't experience the game by doing so. A new player goes out into the world to kill monsters. Something dies. Doesn't drop shit for gold (maybe it drops items, but maybe it doesn't since items aren't a guaranteed drop). They're going to end up going back to the arena simply because they'll think it's more profitable to be there as opposed to killing the spawns the builders have placed into the world.

Anyways, that's my idea...now back to the game

[Folder]

It's a tough world out there! I get what you are saying but I don't agree with it. Just my opinion ofc but thieves are a part of the risk element that needs to be there. It should feel dangerous out in the world, or at least like it's a rough place.

If there is a thief around try and counter him. Drag mobs, search, try and find him exhausted from sneaking, get friends, etc.

Or make your own thief :p.

[Lavelia]

It's a tough world out there! I get what you are saying but I don't agree with it. Just my opinion ofc but thieves are a part of the risk element that needs to be there. It should feel dangerous out in the world, or at least like it's a rough place.

If there is a thief around try and counter him. Drag mobs, search, try and find him exhausted from sneaking, get friends, etc.

Or make your own thief :p.

I have no problems with thieves. I have a problem with all the mobs being robbed of all gold and leaving none for the players who actually KILL said mobs. I have a thief, actually. But I play in such a way that, if I steal from something then I kill it after I'm done. Hours after the thieves have gone through mobs end up still having zero gold. It's frustrating when you're trying to earn gold to have to go through and kill the mobs just so that a fresh mob will respawn with gold on it. Stealing is a mechanic of the game. I even like that mechanic. But it needs a balance to the theft for the other players. Not everyone plays a thief. Not everyone likes that class of character and that's true of every class in game. I, personally, dislike mana users (I still play them so I can deck my own stuff out but I'm a bit of a masochist.).

Getting stolen from by a player playing a thief is part of the 'danger' mechanic of the game. Players should fear thieves. Both for the theft aspect and for the backstabs that might be in their future. It's one of the hazards of playing. I don't feel that having the mobs be empty of gold for other players who kill them, outside of the thief class, is necessarily a positive side effect of the game. However if players are out farming mob spawns for gold and not getting any even though they're killing all the spawns in an area then that is a separate issue imo.

I've played other games where thieves run through and steal from the monster spawns but didn't kill them. I've gone behind them and wiped those mobs out. The difference is that, in those games, the monsters have two purses on them. One for the thieves and one for the players that kill them. In those other games, whether you actually have to pay to level or not has been both yes and no, but in this game the cost to level goes up. If you're a person who plays something that isn't so easy to level, say a sorc or necro, because they use both mana pots and health pots, not earning gold is a hard hit. Both because initially (not counting the quest system atm) it's hard to get enough gold to level, pay for healing and mana potions, and buying spells. My Sorc ate mana pots and healing pots like crazy. My only saving grace was the fact that I have a Monk and I tend to kill anything and everything (mob spawn wise) in my path several times over. But just as I don't like playing mana users, there are people out there that don't like playing pure melee type classes, which means that farming for gold is more difficult due to the cost of keeping them full of mana/healing potions.

A class type shouldn't have an negative impact on other aspects of the game outside the main impact he/she/it is meant to have. Aka thieves are meant to steal, both from mobs and players alike, and they're meant to backstab them. It's a danger factor and it can be a very fun element in and of itself. Can the player being stolen from/attacked by the hidden thief beat said thief? Can they drag spawns onto the enemy while the enemy is weak and unable to flee? It's all a part of the game and it's fun. What giving the mobs two purses would do is motivate those who run thieves to, perhaps, kill the mobs as well as steal from them. It would be an encouragement to those players and would reduce the detriment of having a thief running through robbing every single mob in the world until there's no more gold to be had on anything and he finds himself having to log off and play on another alt until someone else runs through and slaughters everything. My suggestion is a win win for everyone involved. It's not an attack on the thief class at all. It's simply pointing out a problem and suggesting a viable solution. Nothing more, nothing less .

[daedroth]

Eh... I dont really play thiefs, and I also find it annoying to have no gold from kills, but I disagree (with Lavelia) and like things the way they are. I know its a game, but robbed is robbed. Maybe with intelligent creatures, they could have a hidden pouch on them that would require some kind of check (int/wis) to see if the thief spots it when robbing (or indeed the person who kills the mob), that about the only thing I think would make sense. However were all entitled to our opinions, feel free to disagree with me :p

The extra pouch thing could be applied to the player. Something you could buy to safe guard a small amount of gold that would require a check to spot when something/someone tried to rob you or killed you.

[NiteHawk]

The problem with giving two coin purses is the fact that each mob will generally be doubling the economy, which isn't good. This means that just for one class, we risk breaking the balance because someone can rob, then someone can kill it, and generally get double gold.

This is why we have several mobs that can drop items now too. The idea of junk items is that they cannot be stolen and they can be sold for profit. Not 'all' mobs have this, but I think alot of mobs will (or more should anyways.) Junk items obviously are safe in the fact that you yourself cannot be robbed as well while you hold them. Maybe more mobs need something like this, At least half the mobs types could have it. It's probably harder to say now also because there are NOT enough leveling areas and a 22-25 area might be more gold based then item drop based, and there is very little room for going elsewhere.

Though also, normally for most monsters, from what I've seen after the first kill or two in the area, the new monsters that spawn are normally not robbed, it's typically a one time rob with Thieves, they often don't stay in the area and rob (Not saying this couldn't be a thing, but it's the whole time > money deal that makes it not worth it often.)

If this was ever to be added (the thief double purse thing) it would be more like you can steal 50-75% of the max on mobs, and then the rest is by killing it. I don't know if this is needed yet, really depends on what everyone says. I'm not going to increase the gold output on all mobs, double economy is going to hurt the game. ROK had alot of issues economy wise, and trying to balance double gold due to one class again is too much. I think the hidden pouch or extra pouch thing is really a over complicated thing in which if people ever felt that the gold drops were being robbed too much, you just have all mobs drop sellable items too and then balance the gold based on the item itself. (I.E. if the mob has 200 gold, make it only have 100 gold, and a 100 gold item.)

[Makoto]

you just have all mobs drop sellable items too and then balance the gold based on the item itself. (I.E. if the mob has 200 gold, make it only have 100 gold, and a 100 gold item.)

In all honesty, I could get behind this. As it currently stands, Lavelia just got me started in the game, and I'm finding it nearly impossible to level lowbie alts at this point, due to the fact that lowbie alts generally require pots and/or mana, both of which cost money, to stay out in the field getting XP. And timne and again, I'm coming across entire area-wide swathes of mobs that have been robbed blind. No GP means no self-sufficiency, as both pots and mana become a moneysink that go uncompensated as the effort and time you put into using them comes up with a massive gp-shortage. And then there's the problem of leveling costs at class guilds, which grow exponentially more expensive as levels increase...

I understand the concerns of economy, and I am well aware of the inflation-factor inherent in MMO's. But too little moneyflow can create an even worse problem than too much, as people decide that running alts and others coming into the game decide that levelling chars is just not worth the effort, if they put in the work to kill something, but someone else has already got all the shinies before they ever get there, for entire areas of mobs. Nobody likes to work for free, and this applies to MMO's as well. Why grind, especially when levelling costs gold, when you're not going to get anything of value, in return?

[daedroth]

@Nitehawk if there was something like a money pouch for mobs then yeh it would only store a percentage of what they would normally drop anyway.

@Makato the cheap option is to kill stuff, eat food/drink, kill stuff, rinse and repeat. Slower levelling, but if your concerned about gold, its an option. If your power levelling by guzzling potions and such, well thats the cost of it. I honestly havent had a problem with money (yet, I am a cheap skate though).

I am not really bothered about the money pouch idea, just thought id throw them out there based on what was said in this posting and what came into my mind as reading/typing.
Another idea if the robbing REALLY is a problem. Certain monsters could just have no money, only drop something sellable (ie wolf fur, bear fur) which is something the game sort of already have, but just dispense with the gold (where do the animals store their gold anyway?). I am sure no one will complain about having to run to the shops to sell stuff...

[Folder]

Y'all worried about something that will naturally balance over time. Thieves will be VERY USEFUL when the game is new and there's not a lot of gold floating around. As time goes on with more and more gold being introduced this robbing thing becomes less and less of an issue. I don't see any point in either punishing thieves or adding some sort of hidden gold mechanic.

I promise you'll forget all about it after the game has been out for a bit. This is of course assuming we have more than 15 people playing, and the world is expanded. Robbing is only a "problem" right now because of 1) small world, 2) very low gold in the economy, 3) very few players. I think it will work out fine given some time.

[Aieron]

Agreeing with Folder. The reason you're finding it a struggle is because there are no quests in and not many alternate lvling areas in yet. From what I understand, the intention is to have 3 primary 'paths' that you could take to lvl to 25, so you'll have a minimum of 3 areas for each lvl range.

Additionally, the questing system will allow for smoother gold flow at the lower lvls (which isn't even bad if you try lvling on mobs that drop sellables).

[Lavelia]

The problem with giving two coin purses is the fact that each mob will generally be doubling the economy, which isn't good. This means that just for one class, we risk breaking the balance because someone can rob, then someone can kill it, and generally get double gold.

This is why we have several mobs that can drop items now too. The idea of junk items is that they cannot be stolen and they can be sold for profit. Not 'all' mobs have this, but I think alot of mobs will (or more should anyways.) Junk items obviously are safe in the fact that you yourself cannot be robbed as well while you hold them. Maybe more mobs need something like this, At least half the mobs types could have it. It's probably harder to say now also because there are NOT enough leveling areas and a 22-25 area might be more gold based then item drop based, and there is very little room for going elsewhere.

Though also, normally for most monsters, from what I've seen after the first kill or two in the area, the new monsters that spawn are normally not robbed, it's typically a one time rob with Thieves, they often don't stay in the area and rob (Not saying this couldn't be a thing, but it's the whole time > money deal that makes it not worth it often.)

If this was ever to be added (the thief double purse thing) it would be more like you can steal 50-75% of the max on mobs, and then the rest is by killing it. I don't know if this is needed yet, really depends on what everyone says. I'm not going to increase the gold output on all mobs, double economy is going to hurt the game. ROK had alot of issues economy wise, and trying to balance double gold due to one class again is too much. I think the hidden pouch or extra pouch thing is really a over complicated thing in which if people ever felt that the gold drops were being robbed too much, you just have all mobs drop sellable items too and then balance the gold based on the item itself. (I.E. if the mob has 200 gold, make it only have 100 gold, and a 100 gold item.)

I will quickly point out that when I mentioned a second purse, I also mentioned that the gold a monster dropped in total (between the second purse for thieves and the original one dropped upon death) would probably end up being lowered, or simply split between the kill drop and the thieve's purse.

To address the rest of the post though, I don't mind junk drops and that would be a viable option as well, since it would keep the game in balance.

Either suggestion would work imo because the balance of the game would remain relatively the same.

@daedroth Right now, the issue with eating/drinking something is that you have to wait for food cool down before you can drink anything. That's not slow leveling, that's snail leveling, if you're running a mana sucking alt. It's true, eating and drinking can restore mana/health but it seriously slows down leveling when you're a new player. (I use both food/drinks and pots when leveling my mage-types so I'm well aware how much it slows down leveling to do this.) But I do like you're addition to the idea of the Thieve's Purse (yes, I just named it ) holding a mere percentage of the gold it holds, total.

@folder: Yes, thieves are useful. I've already mentioned that thieves have their place and that this is NOT an attack on that particular class. Hell on Nightmist I ran a Thief almost constantly for the duration of the time I played. I enjoyed playing my thief. It was fun. Every class has it's perks and it's deficits and a player that truly loves playing a thief understands this simply because they took the time to level the damned thing (it's a total pain in the ass at low levels just because of the fizzle-factor ). This idea isn't to 'penalize' those who play the thief class. In fact it might just be incentive to get those thieves to actually kill what they steal from.

@Aeron: The quest system will help but it's not meant to, well I hope, be what floats players level up cost in it's entirety. Once you add the cost of decking your gear (I dropped approximately 20k, give or take 5k, gold between mana to cast the spells into scrolls and refill the mana bar, emberstones, blank scrolls, to gear up my second monk, and that was doing all of the decking with my own crew.) and buying potions/food/drink then the cost racks up quickly. The only thing I'm addressing in this post is the fact that you have to put in quite a bit of work a fair amount of the time to just get any return on the effort being put in. Kill a spawn. No gold, no item, null drop. Kill the next one. Rinse and repeat all the way through an area. By the time you come back through, hopefully, everything that's been a complete null drop has respawned. If you're a low level player it can be a hard hit, you know? Even with eating/drinking to offset cost you still have to wait the cool down time on food/drink before doing so again, and in the meantime you're going to need to heal health and mana.