Divs x Neutral Chars

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Inverno
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Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Inverno » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:47 am

Hello ppl,

Just saw the update post and the new div modifier, and was thinking about something: why would someone actually create new char thats not neutral div?

If you go for div:
- You have to worry all the time if someone have div against you.
- If you are in a aod and your char is already know by the community, they can party up to have div over you.
- You rely on luck to fight someone who is not neutral and you have div on events.

If you go neutral:
- No worries. Open your game, attack the enemy and success.
- Youre immune to ember bonuses.
- No bonus, no penalties. Always good for any event.
- The price for /templeset and /heal isnt significant.

So, unless you lvling a char for a specific aod, why would you lvl a div character? The relation between div X non-div seens unbalanced to me.
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Terron
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:04 pm

neutral has its advantages, but loses possible overall power considering top tier items. but then again noone can stack div on you so neutral ftw.

adding agi bonus/loss for divs isnt a good idea imo. but its whatever. this update is looking to excel slayers to a point idc anymore. now theyll slap you for 600+x2 even more often lol.

you cant deny that the slayer is the most optimal character currently for everything but 1v1/2v2 events. the whole pvp aspect of the game is healers and slayers or support to make slayers protected/buffed/healed better/more often. they do more damage than zerks and do so w/o having to build "flurry" and also do so without having to roll vs agi and armor 4x a round. this is effectively 2x hit rate. and with no penalties.

lets breakdown some of the update stuff:

faster stam regen- this benefits everyone, however, its going to hurt healers most due to less reaction time. really a super bonus to dpsers who dont have to react at all and just smash f1, biggest of which is uh, you guessed it, slayer.

potion timer being longer - yep u gunna get backstabbed 2x and unable to pot in between, u fked.(advantage slayer)

heals getting lowered - advantage dpsers, slayer most

mana potions being lowered - disadvantage casters, advantage to anything mages are supposed to counter (yep slayer)

div bonus agi - advantage pkers with each div of, yep, slayer
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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NiteHawk
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:58 pm

Inverno wrote:Hello ppl,

Just saw the update post and the new div modifier, and was thinking about something: why would someone actually create new char thats not neutral div?

If you go for div:
- You have to worry all the time if someone have div against you.
- If you are in a aod and your char is already know by the community, they can party up to have div over you.
- You rely on luck to fight someone who is not neutral and you have div on events.

If you go neutral:
- No worries. Open your game, attack the enemy and success.
- Youre immune to ember bonuses.
- No bonus, no penalties. Always good for any event.
- The price for /templeset and /heal isnt significant.

So, unless you lvling a char for a specific aod, why would you lvl a div character? The relation between div X non-div seens unbalanced to me.


Also you have to remember the two classes that can have some impact in PVP when used right is a protecting guardian and a cleric, both classes that cannot be neutral. By going neutral, sure, you prevent having a weakness on you, but you also prevent having a bonus. Being able to DPS certain classes down with a bonus will be good.

You get as much bonuses as you do negatives, so saying it's more negative or worse I'd say is incorrect. Choosing neutral is a 'safe side', but it will probably not win you PVP group fights anyways as easy as it would having a bonus. Sure, you might get partied up with div, but you can also do the same. :>

P.S For T. I don't want to get into it with you but potion timers aren't going longer. They are shorter. Mana is pointless right now as you can literally just use one potion and be full, etc. Faster stam regen doesn't really help slayers, it hurts them because they got to move back and forth or wait out the timer for hiding again, which isn't being changed. Yet other classes won't have this delay (aka delay that doesn't change but your exh changes is a negative to me.)

I know you think we can just zap slayers like nothing, I understand they have faults, but doing so would probably make half the community quit unless we have other things that can make the ease of PVP better. Workin on it.

Terron
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:49 pm

i played a chanter for a long time and almost never even have the opportunity to use a mana i have to use a potion or die.

as for slayer idc what u do with them, zap em or dont. games gotten to that point already man. ive used multiples of all 12 classes. i also have a 10 str brig that outputs more damage than chanters and dms on almost every monster available over level 20. unaffects and fizzles are a fkin plague atm.

as for the timer slayers already have a slight time disadvantage, and u think making the clock shorter is going to hurt them now? 12341234 is not hard to do lol. and alot of them just use 1 click macromouse anyway. i honestly dont think they need removed or nerfed offensively all that much, but they should be dying way faster than zerks do, because they kill 3x as fast. whole gd game of buff/protect/heal an army of slayers is getting old mate.

with pot timers faster, its even worse than i thought. u already had 9 classes that couldnt out damage potions to begin with. now we will have 11
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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NiteHawk
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby NiteHawk » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 pm

as for the timer slayers already have a slight time disadvantage, and u think making the clock shorter is going to hurt them now? 12341234 is not hard to do lol. and alot of them just use 1 click macromouse anyway. i honestly dont think they need removed or nerfed offensively all that much, but they should be dying way faster than zerks do, because they kill 3x as fast. whole gd game of buff/protect/heal an army of slayers is getting old mate.


As for the slight time disadvantage, I was just pointing out that it's a slight disadvantage not a benefit. I do agree with dying faster, we're working on that and I have some ideas for it. They don't have much faults and that's something that will change too.

Anywho, this topic should get back on track about what the topic poster was talking about. :>

Terron
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Terron » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:28 pm

yeah inverno and i pretty much summed that up. div penalties/bonuses/ huge embers/dragon items or just go neutral and avoid it all.

most new characters seem to be neutral/most koth participants are becoming neutrals. its probably the best idea so a pking slayer doesnt have div on you constantly. because most of them have slayers of multiple divs if not all of them already and will just switch to whatever can kill u easier.

outside of pking characters or oad specifics divinity isnt optimal
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Kruell
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Kruell » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:33 pm

NiteHawk wrote:Faster stam regen doesn't really help slayers, it hurts them because they got to move back and forth or wait out the timer for hiding again, which isn't being changed


I can't believe I have to point this out. Slayers don't have to move back and forth to backstab. You can literally have F1=/hide and F2="a man" and just stand in the square landing backstab after backstab.

The only way neutral div doesn't work out as OP in the end is for the game to factor divinity into most end game content. For instance, there should be requirements on certain items that they require a certain divinity to use. Also, since neutral div can use embers (my neutral div caster uses a lightning ember) they have the ability to "fake" a divinity and therefore gain bonuses without any negative effects such as the pesky bonus to hit by an opposing div. I know the divinity explanation says neutral divinity can't use embers but my experience shows otherwise. I'm sure either I've just not tested enough or this is a coding artifact that will be addressed soon. Someone with some neutral 25ers can better say if embers work for them on armor and weapons.

The last "one healer" team mosh I saw had a druid as the healer for the winning team. Druids can be neutral divinity so that makes at least one effective neutral divinity healer. I don't have enough 25ers or divinities right now to test it well myself but I've been watching the interplay of classes for a couple months now. If Druids can take the place of Priests (and due to their spells be more valuable) in healing then the Priest class will become an afterthought in parties and events. The divinity factor simply won't be an issue so neutral will be the preferred way to go.

I'm not sure what the long term plans are for end content. I'm also pretty sure there will be changes to divinity bonuses even after this update. I'm sure class balance will have to be re-evaluated again once changes are semi-finalized to divinity. I believe someone has already mentioned the need to decide if all classes are supposed to be good for all things or if roles will be considered in balance. There are a lot of factors still in flux that will eventually need to be finalized at some point. I think the players know a lot more about how things interact than most Staff so when a players mentions something as a possible problem it is well worth examining it.
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Terron
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Terron » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:17 am

the embers aren't supposed to work on neutrals. that was said in the update that brought neutral.

the class limiting random moshes are kinda dumb. u say no healers so teams dont get screwed with the seemingly high chance every healer ends up on a single team.so the next one 2 druids heal their team and they win. now elder has been canned. and guess what it happened to be 3 mages and 2 ninjas vs 5 10 wisdom characters. OUCH. lol you cant limit classes and expect rng created teams to be fair. maybe bring in the participants for the 6v6/5v5 whatever. randomize the teams and let them all swap characters to whatever they want afterwards. but have a nice rule. limit of 1 of each class per team. then let them duke it out

oads just arent hard enough currently to warrant choosing div which imo is a large boost to neutral. however most of my characters i create arent neutral because i like the flash and glorified numbers of having div. however i dont see neutral as being op, they are just neutral and wont tolerate your crappy divinity sorcery.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

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daedroth
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby daedroth » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:03 am

I never did like the divinity system :)
I think they should have some kind of appropriate bonus (ATT+, Dodge+, Stamina Regen+, HP+ etc). I have posted on this before though, so not going to bother again.
Also it would likely be a pain to balance.
I went all neutral with my alts (apart from those who can't) because I cba with the divinty system. I just cba levelling alts again right now. So I went to non/semi active mode until I feel like levelling again.
Slayer problem has been mentioned so many times as well.
GL wit dis.
Disclaimer: Any ideas I come up with may not even meet my approval. I am just posting an idea based on the topic I have just read.
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Zarkral
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Re: Divs x Neutral Chars

Postby Zarkral » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:11 am

Kruell wrote:The last "one healer" team mosh I saw had a druid as the healer for the winning team.
Just for the record druid as healers have yet to win any "one healer" mosh, despite the rules giving them a free pass around the restriction (they can join as dps even if they are going to heal). Druids sneaking into "no healer" moshes is another matter though.

Anyway to stay on topic this change effectively just buffs the div bonus from 10% to 14-15% depending on your stats. Reasons for picking neutral div:
Is it a good starter character, can go anywhere.
Less to worry about.
You can't be directly countered.

Reasons for picking div:
Countering someone specific.
Having div is strictly better for PvE content.
If you can predict what div to bring to events you'll get an above average result.


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